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Old 2011-02-14, 17:33   Link #120
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post

I feel Sayaka is getting off way too easy around here.
If anything, I think that the opposite is true.

I think that she's taken unfair heat based on very unreasonable expectations.

She's not waiting until she has all the facts or trying to see where the other party is coming from.
I don't think that you're truly trying to see where Sayaka is coming from.

Let's say, Dark Wing, that you love a girl with all your heart (perhaps you do in real life, in which case, this analogy should be very easy for you to get). You love her so much that you made a huge sacrifice (say, all of your life savings) to see to it that her arm is healed, so that she could pursue her beloved musical talents anew.

Shortly thereafter, a new co-worker shows up at your place of work, and advocates that you should start doing your job the way that he does, which in your view is a far more unethical (if not outright evil) way of doing your job. He also is going to engage in these unethical work practices regardless of what you say to him about it, and threatens you by pointing a gun at your head while he makes a declaration to this effect. He also wants to get you fired from your job since you won't do things his way, and says this in front of your mutual boss.

He later sneeringly insults you for choosing to make the sacrifice that you did for the girl that you love, just before you're about to pay her a visit no less. He says that you should have broke all four limbs of your girlfriend's body, as that would ensure that you'd have her forever. Then he offers to do that for you, with the obvious implication being that you're going to have to fight him in a possibly lethal fight if you want to defend your girlfriend.

Now, Dark Wing, what is your reaction to this person? Be honest now.

Whatever your reaction would be, I have my doubts that Gandhi himself could bring himself to pursuing a diplomatic solution if in Sayaka's position.

As for Sayaka's reaction to Homura, I'll get to that in a second.

For Example:

Kyouko is killing people for her own benefit. I will fight her, and kill her if necessary.
She is, in a sense, killing people for her own benefit. At the very least, she's risking the lives of innocent people for her own benefit.


Homura let Mami die. She has to go too.
What are you talking about? Sayaka has never looked for a physical fight with Homura. Even in Episode 1, she simply doused Homura with a fire extinguisher in order to save Kyubey's life and make a getaway.

This is what Sayaka has seen of Homura so far:

1. Homura comes into class, acts coldly and strangely, and later makes very ominous and bizarre statements to Madoka.

2. Homura tries to kill a sentient life form, seemingly unprovoked.

3. Even after Homura tried to kill her friend, Mami tries to act diplomatically towards Homura, offering to share a grief seed with Homura as a symbolic gesture of offering the olive branch. Homura literally throws it back in Mami's face.

4. Through all of this, Homura is pretty much ignoring Sayaka, and barely acknowledges that Sayaka even exists.

Even at this point, why exactly should Sayaka think that Homura is anything but a very bad seed? Why should Sayaka attempt to be diplomatic with Homura, when Mami attempting exactly that went nowhere? And Sayaka's meetings with Homura only gets worse from here.

It's fine for us viewers, having a more omniscient 3rd person perspective, to recognize that there's more to the story than what Sayaka is seeing. But at the same time, if we truly put ourselves in Sayaka's shoes, it should make it obvious that her actions and reactions are perfectly reasonable and understandable given what she has seen and gone through thus far.

Reasonable and understandable do not necessarily equal "right", by the way.

People can take reasonable and understandable courses of action that nonetheless end up being the wrong path to take. It happens. We're human, and hence we're not perfect.


All the other magical girls must be the same as them. None of them are good like me.
This is just Sayaka preparing herself for the worst, and trying to come to grips with how her previously positive assessment of magical girls was not entirely correct.


She's not even considering that she might be wrong.
Why would she? Seriously, why would she?

From her perspective, she has plenty of damning evidence to go on when it comes to Kyoko and Homura.

She doesn't know Homura was tied up. She hasn't considered that Kyouko's attitude is actually justified, given the realities of their situation.
Sayaka believes that it's wrong to let innocent people die when you have the ability and power to prevent that.

She has a right to that belief, Dark Wing.

And she certainly has some pretty good company in holding it (Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc...).

People were calling Madoka stupid for that admittedly dumb mistake on the bridge,
Madoka's action wasn't well-thought out at all, but I can understand why she panicked and did it.

My issue with Madoka's action has nothing to do with Sayaka's soul being in the soul gem (after all, how was Madoka supposed to know that?), but rather that Madoka's action would have left Sayaka absolutely defenseless against two powerful girls that are threatening to get violent with her, and possibly lethally so.

However Sayaka who thinks she has all the answers and is willing to kill based on a very shallow understanding of the situation get a free pass?
Dark Wing, don't you think a person should be allowed to kill in self-defense, if no non-lethal means of self-defense exists? I don't think that Sayaka wants to kill Kyoko. It's just that she knows that Kyoko wants to kill her (and possibly do grievous harm to the boy that she loves), so Sayaka's only option might be to kill in necessary self-defense.

Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

Sayaka is a bit hot-headed, letting herself get provoked, but as Madoka even realized, Sayaka isn't wrong. She's doing the right thing, and yet paying the price for it. In a way, though, that reveals true strength of courage and conviction. It's easy to be principled, when you don't have to put those principles to the test. The fact that she's willing to put her life on the line, does speak volumes about her convictions.
Totally agree.


I said this before, but it feels like a cynical universe to me, and in those conditions, there is rarely a good right answer. There is only option A and option B, both dirty and non-perfect.
I wouldn't call it a cynical universe, necessarily. I'd simply call it a realistic one. In real life, there are some people you just can't negotiate with. There are some people that, sadly, will never be rehabilitated from criminal and/or oppressive ways.

Heck, for anybody following the news, the people of Egypt correctly made this observation, and they forced a change in government because of it.

I don't know if Kyoko can be negotiated with, but I wouldn't be very hopeful there. She certainly doesn't seem like the compromising type.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't think that's the point. Whether things change or not, you gotta try, otherwise you already lost from the start.
Trying for a diplomatic solution when the chance of one is realistically hopeless may simply waste invaluable time, and strengthen the hand of a dangerous enemy.

Just ask Neville Chamberlain.

And Winston Churchill.

And really, in the end, unless you try, you can't never tell for sure. An attitude like that of Sayaka would always end up in regrets.
I disagree. If Chamberlain was more like Sayaka, he likely would have had fewer regrets, not more.

Diplomacy is not a free choice. It comes at a cost. For you to make a diplomatic gesture to someone, you need to leave yourself somewhat vulnerable.

This is why, like it or not, careful and diligent thought needs to go into whether or not diplomacy is a wise course of action given the circumstances and the principal players involved.

Often it is a wise course of action, thankfully.

Sometimes, though, it's actually the riskier course of action.

Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-02-15 at 00:43.
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