[Kaijo]

Big post due to several people to respond to. Tried to trim some stuff I thought unimportant. If you wanted me to respond to something specific and I didn't, please re-ask and let me know.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It's because you're trying to convince yourself otherwise .

On the contrary, I've even listed criteria that would convince me, and a show that did (Mai HiME). I'd like to be convinced, but I'm not there yet. And I know what deconstruction is, thank you. My point was not about deconstruction at all, but about making me believe this is all bad.

Madoka on the other hand so far seems to go against this. The magical girls are almost more like victims rather than heros fighting against evil.

Young girls fighting monsters who are preying on humans. Where have I seen this before? Yes, it's not exact, but it is very close. We don't know what witches are, so that hurts it, and perhaps would help. If it was somehow hinted that witches weren't the bad thing we thought they were, then it would be more interesting to me.

And partially I'll agree about Nanoha, because that is an idealistic universe, whereas Madoka is a cynical one.

Magical Girl series usually make the idea of magic fun. It's something cool, and something you'd like to be able to use. The world is interesting, and you possibly would like to take part in it.

Eh, maybe they're convincing you, but I still see a super-resilient body and magic powers.

This will especially be the case if they're constantly at threat of becoming a witch if they don't purify their soul gems.

And this is what I see over and over. In order to convince yourself, you have to make an assumption and treat it as fact. When and if this becomes true, I'll re-evaluate my opinion on this. But as it stands now, there isn't much to convince me this all horrible.

Originally Posted by Sackett

Cursed with Awesome? This is Blessed With Suck.

Magical powers, fast healing, death avoidance, sounds pretty good... oh wait, there is that little having your soul ripped out and stuck in a gem thing.

You can't say "Suck" and then go on to list the very cool things that counteract the definition of suck. Read the Cursed with Suck page. It lists 5 examples, the first four of which don't apply. The last maybe, sorta might, but it's not direct at best.

This is exemplified in Kyoko. Sure, she had a bad past, but she enjoys her powers and the present. If someone is enjoying the powers, then it's not really a "Suck" situation.

Consider Sayaka's grief about how she can never kiss her love- because it won't be her. It won't be her lips on his. Her soul will not be intertwined with his. It will just be a lump of flesh, not a living soul, kissing her love.

Which is all in her mind. To misquote the bard again: "Has she not human eyes and ears? When you prick her, does she not bleed?"

We have many stories of people where their spirits disconnect from their bodies, or say someone becomes a ghost. Are they any less human, if they still possess human thoughts and feelings? You're right that I'm looking at it in a coldly logical way (which I've stressed over and over). Because emotions are just in the mind, and each of us decides what we want to be, and what we want to think of ourselves.

At this time, there is nothing preventing her from having a relationship with Kamijou, except herself. When she kisses him, both of them will still feel it. Yes, you can postulate possible reasons, but we don't know any of that at this time. She still eats, shits, and sleeps, feels joy and pain, and can spend time with friends and family. To me, that's human enough.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Comparing on case by case basis isn't really the best thing ever.

I'd partially agree, and I only used the comparison to get across an understanding of how I feel and how I am seeing things.

I think you are taking way too much on the logical side like Kyuubey is doing, and don't see the point in term of a psychological aspect.
Certainly, they have more convenient body, but is that what they want? Is that truely allright to be basically a little gem piloting a flesh robot?

I'd argue that's in the mind. We humans can convince ourselves of anything if we want, and live just fine. What kind of life you have and lead, is totally up to you. It is up to you to come to terms with who you are. No one else can do that for you.

I'm reminded of the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager, and how he became human. And one episode in particular, where he had a breakdown because he saved one patient and not another. They deleted his memory, but later were convinced to let him sit in the holosuite and work through it. He seemed very much a sentient creature to me, despite a lack of a flesh and blood body.

I think you are not giving the appropriate credit regarding the issue about "not feeling human with this body", which leaves a weird conclusion regarding the theme used in Madoka.

The deconstruction is there:

As I said above, it is not so much the deconstruction; it's the fact that this is all supposed to seem bad. The best I can see, is that idealism isn't winning the day, but that isn't unusual for a cynical series.

I think you are just looking at it in a complete different perspective, compared to what is going on for a teenager girl thrown in such situation. I'm actually wondering how come you can even pull Setsuna from Negima *scratches head*.

Because as I quoted, I see this as the very definition of the trope. The powers are awesome, and I've stated before that practically everyone here would have wanted them, or at least visualized themselves as heroes gaining power to fight bad things. They never saw such powers as a bad thing.

Just like with Setsuna, who thought her wings made her ugly and inhuman, when really most people would love to have such wings.

In appearance, Sayaka is the same as human, but in essence she is no longer human. That simple thought lead to a lot of complications, such like the plain and painful "immortality".
Defining a human is a tad difficult, because the definition itself can be a sketch (for instance, those who have read Ever17 will understand, as I'm referring to Tsugumi speech: what is "yourself"? If you cut an arm, can you still call that arm "you"? What defines you with a body that is constantly renewing its cell etc? What is your own existence actually?).
However, the representation of one's own existence is always personal and you can't have a formula. You might think that Sayaka didn't change, but as far as her characterization went, she cannot see herself human anymore.

And as I said, that's in her mind. Biologically speaking, not much has changed. Just the way she thinks about herself. That's for her to work out, and maybe it convinces you that this is bad, but it doesn't for me, which is the only main point I was making: I am not convinced.

That is reality, and I think it is extremely weird and preposterous to put a logic like "she LOOKS human, and CAN act human, so no big deal".
Not everyone are fine with what they "can" do, but what they "ARE". Which is the problem with Sayaka: even if you tells her that she can hug and kiss Kyousuke with this body, it doesn't mean she is human one bit. She can -act- as a human, but she is by essence not the same.

Then the logical conclusion you come to, is that there are people who look human, but can be sub-human or non-human to you. That's a dangerous slippery slope to go down. I suppose that's why I stick to a more logical standpoint.

This point is very important to define the thought process of such character.
You are asking a teenager girl to understand something like this. I dunno about you, but it isn't a magical equation to think "it is normal to have dark thoughts".

I partially agreed with this, when I said that if I was a teenaged girl, I might be more sympathetic. But endless teenage girl angst and whining doesn't entertain me, anymore than it did in Twilight. And obviously, Twilight has it's fans, so great on them. Not every work can appeal to everyone, obviously.

The rest of what you're saying, I understand, it's just not convincing. The fact that Kyoko is living proof that one can accept it, and still lead a "normal" life shatters the notion. If Sayaka can't get over it, that's her problem. And I expect some angst; just not endless amounts of it. As the trope said, then it drops down into wangst territory.

Originally Posted by Vanish

It's the emotions and atmosphere. It's also closer to real life tragedies. Not the mere fact that someone died.

And Fate was whipped, leaving scars along her back and limbs. The atmosphere of her leaving that room, limping, and calmly telling Arf that she needed to please mother... that wasn't emotions and atmosphere that led you to see a tragedy in action?

I get what you mean but what do you actually expect them to ask?

What else aren't you telling us about this process?
Where do witches come from, really?
And what are they?
Is there another way to deal with witches?
Why is it only young girls being used?
Can we get our soul back in our body and fight normally?
What else is changed about us by becoming a magical girl?

And these are just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I thought more, I'd come up with tons. Perhaps it's just me, but I have a hankering need for more information about what the hell is going on, and there is someone right there who can answer.