[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by naikou

Even professional authors rewrite their work many, many times. I have heard 10 times is not uncommon from an editor friend of mine.

This is true. But I disagree about this being a good thing. The fact that Ryuukishi doesn't spend any time editing his work is what makes the writing style so terrible.

What kind of author seriously writes *cackle* to show that a character is cackling? "Uooooaaaaaaaaaah!" is not a good word. At all. All in all, considering Umineko's writing quality, I'd say it's pretty understandable. He likely doesn't go over as many rewrites as normal authors do.

In the end, he's self published. Yeah yeah he has got a team, but as far as we know there is no one who tells him to cut things or where to improve, which is where most rewrites come from. Without an editor, you don't even know what you did wrong to start with.

Except that Umineko is not just some fantasy novel, nor mystery novel, nor any kind of genre fiction.

...I'd disagree there, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion.

Umineko does not waste inordinate amounts of times describing scenery, like some fantasy authors (hullo there Robert Jordan),

Umineko doesn't waste inordinate amounts of time describing scenery? Are you serious? Well, if you are referring to scenery as...actual scenery, sure, that's true. We know that there is an island and stuff but we are never told in painful detail where everything is.

But Ryu's sense of pacing is abysmal. His pacing makes up for any sort of hope at being quick and to the point he might have.

...Although I really agree with the Jordan criticism. Seriously sometimes his writing feels like the fictional unabridged Princess Bride novel.

and it devotes far more time than any mystery novel to creating solid, believable characters, and expressing actual themes and ideas.

Agatha Christie would like to have a word. Umineko is a single story told through 8 books. It gets more time to develop its characters. Saying that a series with 8 books develops its characters more than mysteries, that typically happen during only one book is like saying that an eight floor building has more windows than a house. Of course it does but...uh...that's expected.

Find me another mystery novel that expresses complex issues in epistemology,

The Greek Coffin Mystery by Ellery Queen. Notable for approaching the possibility of multiple solutions can be possible, what the meaning of a real solution is, and why the real solution is so much deeper than the fake ones.

or a fantasy novel which rationally explains how magic is possible (and is logically correct in doing so!).

Flight of the dragons, for the magic vs science debate, Burning Court by JDC if you can read between the lines, and really everything JDC ever wrote.

JDC was a mystery writer who offered the "impossible is possible" angle a lot. There is a reason why he was called "The man who could explain miracles."

To quote Three Coffins, one of his best novels...

Two murders were committed, in such a fashion that the murderer must not only have been invisible, but lighter than air. According to the evidence, this person killed his first victim and literally disappeared. Again according to the evidence, he killed his second victim in the middle of an empty street, with watchers at either end; yet not a soul saw him, and no footprint appeared in the snow.

All his novels had that magical challenge to the reader where he was dared to solve the impossibility. The magic behind locked rooms was a well debated theme in many of his essays and most mystery writers are aware of it.

Ryuukishi was the only one to flat out tell his readers about it. Most writers just don't make it the central topic around it, because they feel their readers can pick up on those subtle challenges without them pointing at it.

I think you are seriously underestimating the scope and technical execution skill of Umineko. It is far from "throw 20 characters in a blender and see what happens, lol", and it is nothing like any other mystery or fantasy novel I have ever read.

I think you are overestimating it. It is a very ambitious project and I do commend Ryuukishi for trying, but his ideas are neither new nor particularly well executed. It's the amount of ideas he tried to put together over a single series that's impressive. His execution however, was lackluster to say the least.

Still, he deserves credit for trying, and now that he has another completed series under his belt his next series could incorporate what made Umineko fun and perfect it.

Or do you actually think that a character repeating themselves is the same as taking the plot of "Lord of the Rings", changing it slightly, and then publishing it over and over, like many fantasy authors?

If we are going to talk about plot, Umineko is basically The Greene Murder Case by S.S Van Dine while making the murderer more sympathetic, with the island from And Then There Were None as the setting plus the mansion from Greene Murder Case.

As for every locked room he used, they are extremely childish if compared to say Carr's, and are old tricks of mystery fiction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the guy. I'm saying that your idea that "fantasy novels just copy Lord of the ring's plot but Umineko is totally original" is wrong. His ideas are not original, and that's fine.

Writing is about taking many different ideas and making them your own. He did make them his own. He just...well, personally I think he lacked some talent while doing that.

No offense, but you are defending Ryuukishi way, way too much. He isn't the second coming of Jesus. He is not as original as you are claiming him to be. But still, he did aim very high with his series. He came up short in the end, but if you don't dream big, then what's the use in dreaming? His next series will be even better thanks to his failings and successes during this series.

I understand where you are coming from when you say that Umineko is original with some things, but you are really, really underestimating both the mystery and the fantasy genre. They are both more developed than you are assuming.