[Kaijo]

Yeah, sorry, looks like I missed it.^^;;

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Madoka didn't know what to wish for before Mami's death, just liked the idea of a mahou shoujo. Mami dies. Madoka is confused about the role of a mahou shoujo and continues to be until at least Sayaka contracts. With Kyouko's entrance to the show Madoka again is confronted with the choice to become a magical girl. She wants things to get better, but doesn't know how. She's confused, and at this moment just wants everything to get better. Homura keeps warning her not to contract, despite Madoka yearning to change the misfortune. At this point though, are we the viewers able to clearly see a way to change everything for the better?

The answer is no because at this point we still don't even know the nature of the system yet. We don't know what causes witches. We don't know why Homura wants Madoka to stop form contracting so badly. We don't know if there's an effective wish that can be made to stop everyone's troubles.

Yeah, you say she could've asked Homura and Kyube for information... However, we already know Homura was not going to give out the information. They also already asked what witches come from to Kyube and Mami and got a reply that magical girls are hope while witches are like curses. I mean, they already gave an answer, that not until later, did we fully understand what Kyube meant.

Let me use Mai Hime for a moment... Natsume was actively asking people and seeking out information. Mai went to ask Mashiro what was going on. They obviously weren't told, but these 14 year old girls are smart enough to ask the questions. So, sure, Homura might not have said anything, but Kyube seemed to be rather forthcoming about things when pressed.

I will say this: if they had asked, and Homura stonewalled, while Kyube gave half-truths or outright lied, then I wouldn't have a problem here. In fact, it would be the perfect way to address this. Your characters look at least to be of average intelligence, and yet you keep them in the dark long enough for the plot to develop. In that respect, Mai Hime handled it beautifully.

A lot of their lacking information was crafty wording by Kyube. Episode 10 showed that divulging all the information didn't necessarily lead to good things either. Episodes 11 and 12 showed that Madoka constantly was getting exponentially more powerful. The availability of being able to circumvent the system in such a way wasn't available before because Madoka wasn't that powerful yet. That's why Homura's struggles were not in vain since her struggles ended up giving Madoka the power to accomplish what she did.

And yet, divulging all that information was what gave Madoka the idea for her wish. Whether you see the ending as a good thing or bad thing, is dependent upon personal feelings, though. But I want to clarify I'm not referring to other timelines; just the main one.

In the end, was it really even useful for Madoka to think about wishing Mami back?

It would be a naturally human thing to at least consider. I never spoke as to how wise it might be, merely that it should have been something considered. We are all gonna die someday, so in that light, do you save someone when you the opportunity to? Or do you think "Naw, we all die someday, so I'll leave him laying on the train track."

As Haak pointed out, a deconstruction isn't all about having a bad or bittersweet ending. A deconstruction only aims to take certian parts of a genre or trope and show that it's not exactly so. I feel Madoka did plenty good on that, regardless of which world, the previous or ending world we end up in. This is because it shows how the girl's choices have consequences and while MG's may be noble, as clearly portrayed, they're often sacrifices. Nothing wrong here.

I should clarify that if this anime wanted to really be a deconstruction, then they could have had a fairly nice deconstructed ended. Madoka shows up in episode 12 beside Homura.

Madoka: "You know what, Homura? You're right. All this time I've been concerned with others, and nothing I did made any difference. Sayaka tried to help others, and in the end only destroyed herself. Kyoko died as well, trying to help someone else. So I'm going to make my wish, and make it for myself, because I've learned you were right, in that it is up to each person in this world to do for themselves. I owe you for showing this to me, and protecting me, so I'll take out Walpurgis for you."

Bam, you give birth to an MG protagonist, who is an anti-hero. Who fights for herself, instead of love or friendship.

Poor analogy. Is God an active agent throughout the story like Madoka? The whole show led up to Madoka eventually contracting, while hinting at her potential and power. If your analogy accounted for the probable entrance of God intervening in the story, there'd be no problem IMO. Same here, it was probable not unexpected. It's not an out of the blue event. It's not a deus ex machina, almost objectively speaking here.

Heh, you really wanna call Madoka an active agent? She mostly sat on the sidelines. But "God" in this case refers to Madoka's godlike power that only came around in episode 12. Madoka's power wasn't an active participant in the majority of the story. So the analogy does hold, because in my example and the story the "god" element is talked about, but doesn't take action until the end.

I take it you never saw ET then. Whatever, this analogy isn't needed.

I did(although it's been years, heh). And at the start, having ET fly a bicycle at the start wouldn't have accomplished anything. It didn't help until they were being chased and needed to get away.

This is simply not true. Episode 10 shows this is not the case. Furthermore, in this timeline Homura was unwilling to divulge information and Kyube was twisting the words of truth the whole time.

I wouldn't argue twisting so much; he was being rather truthful, about especially interesting things. He could have twisted things with the whole soul gem issue to hide the truth; he didn't. The worst "twisting" he does, is to just not mention certain things. But I'll restate my point that whether or not he divulges the information when asked (and I could even accept that he might not), the point would be for the girls to ask anyway. That way, you keep your protagonists looking intelligent, and the plot intact.

Homura going cold? That's not convenient. The other approaches didn't work. She tried a new approach. You viewed that as ineffective, but her goal was to not allow Madoka to contract, which she did succeed in doing so. She would've been more successful had she just defeated walprugis night on her own.

It is convenient, because it provides an excuse for her to not explain anything to Madoka and Sayaka, and to present herself as an antagonist at the start. She kinda tried explaining in one timeline, but we don't know what she said exactly. So, she discards one idea that she kinda, sorta, tried in a half-ass way, in favor of another method (defeat Walpurgis alone) that she's tried and failed several times! We could say: "she didn't know that she might not be able to do it alone" to which I would reply: "she didn't know that she might not be able to convince them if she tried explaining better."

Kyoko's transition was a little rough, but it wasn't out of place. She did have a very relateable story to Sayaka, and Sayaka reminded her of how she once was.

I probably could have bought the initial truce when Kyoko wanted to talk. But when Sayaka spit on Kyoko's whole way of life, I didn't buy her suddenly deciding to sacrifice her life for Sayaka.

Hitomi confessing to Kamijo may be a bit convenient, but not more so than many plot details in almost every story.

"Everyone else does it, too!" isn't a very compelling argument for various reasons. Especially when a lot of other stories don't use it (or at least abuse it to this degree). I don't question that Hitomi comes up with a crush confession. I question the timing and the 1 day factors. It was deliberately designed to further twist the screws into Sayaka, and not much else.

And those were only a fraction of the issues. What about Homura attempting to kill Kyube in ep1, when she knows that it is pointless - convenience designed to get Madoka and Sayaka there, make them see Homura as antagonist, and.. oh yeah, there's a witch there, too, so we get Mami as well. And then we have a witch that, for some reason, is different and thus can kill Mami right as Madoka has finally decided to become an MG - convenient and never explained. And also Madoka running into a witch-kissed Hitomi.

And we're still left with Madoka and the girls not asking questions. Even if you feel it was okay for them not to in episodes 2, 3 or 4, how about episodes 6 and 7? They had their first very real brush with the idea that Kyube isn't telling them anything; why didn't they think to start grilling him for more information, ie, "What else aren't you telling us?" Instead, they bumble around some more.

I won't turn this into a Nanoha debate though, but I do find it funny that you consider this show so ultra-convenient and contrived compared to Nanoha which I feel is just as convenient, if not more so than this show.

Then let's ignore Nanoha altogether. I am simply judging this show based on it's own merits, and based on the experience of thousands of other stories that have managed a narrative that didn't require so many MacGuffins, kludges, and unexplained events to propel the plot forward.

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Sorry, but you're wrong. Different people are different, and teenage girls are about the least reliable and emotionally-stable people on Earth. I can't believe you're actually arguing this.

*snip*

So yeah. Grief can do FUCKED UP SHIT to your head. After Mami's death I was quite frankly shocked Madoka even remembered her own name.

Have you ever personally lost someone close to you? Did you ever think the words "I wish he/she was still alive..." and/or "I wish he/she hadn't of died..." go through most peoples' minds? In fact, going crazy actually works quite well in this regard, because it showcases perfectly that many people go crazy trying to either pretend the person is still alive, or that they can bring that person back, etc.

It's a very human reaction to wish the person hadn't died or wish they were still alive.