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Originally Posted by Wanderer

I'm inclined to think Erika was the target of a murder mystery prank. During the part where Battler allegedly saw Kinzo (and allegedly wasn't listening to Erika), Erika was detailing all of her expectations of what would happen with the family after the discovery of the gold. Since we know that Battler spacing out and seeing Kinzo is a lie, in reality he was probably actually paying attention to what she was saying; and, since Erika is genre savvy and a bitch, what she was saying might well have been a prediction of murder. Then Battler could have been wanting to get back at Erika by pranking her with fake murders.

I'm not exactly comfortable with this many 'probablies', 'maybes', and 'could haves', though. Then again, it seems like every comprehensive theory for EP5 requires these kinds of stretches in reasoning.

I think Erika was more in the way of what was going on than the target of it.
Definitely, unless most of the plot is a lie, the one who seems to be the target for deception is Natsuhi, not Erika. Erika seems more like 'the detective who got in the way of the plan' however, as she was closed minded, in the end she ended up being used by the siblings to reach their goal.

There's to say that the cousins might have believed they were playing a prank to Erika (or even Shannon as I always wondered why Umineko felt the need to show us that Battler phoned to Jessica prior to reaching Rokkenjima in Ep 5) and that's why they played along as I doubt Jessica would have agreed into faking her own death so as to cause pain to her mother and then let Natsuhi be considered the culprit for it.

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I don't think so. Battler didn't have to say it was Kinzo or Beatrice or anybody at all.

Battler: I've found it... that's the signpost to The Golden Land.
Erika: [...] ......You have pretty good powers of observation.
Battler: Grandfather told me about it.
Erika: Huh? Kinzo-san? Where?
Battler: I'm going. [...]

I wonder... did the Japanese text did really imply that Kinzo told Battler about the signpost? Couldn't it be a misunderstanding and Kinzo told Battler he had pretty good powers of observation (same as Erika just did) and Erika (and us) misinterpreted his answer thinking he was referring to the signpost when in fact he was referring to something else?

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Well, I'm not just talking about knowing the solution exactly, but also knowing the physical route to the room of gold, because at the point I'm talking about they had already solved the epitaph and all that was left was to figure out how to get from the chapel to wherever the underground VIP room was.

If Battler already knows the way, it implies that he has likely already seen the gold itself. For example, Yasu may have already brought him down there much like she did with Krauss and Natsuhi in Our Confessions (whether at gunpoint or not, I don't know).

The question at this point would be when. Of course it's possible than before going to the library and meeting with Erika Battler was led there by Shannon then he purposely went to search for Erika in the library so as to have a witness he casually found the gold and didn't have the solution already.

Still, showing to Erika the gold is odd as they don't know if she's trustworthy and... well, the gold isn't supposed to become public domain.
If he had already had the solution and saw the gold, making her join in the 'hunt' should have had some sort of reason (he could have tried to distract her and force her to stay inside so that she couldn't go out to search...) and the only one I can think of is that the discovery had to look 'incidental'... and it's a weak explanation.

Hum.... I've to think more at all this...

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Knox rules seem fine since they are the way battler solved everything and became game master.
The point was that Battler was never allowed to use the red in the first place, thats why they accused him of 'guessing'
by guessing they thought of him having just tried to say the sentence in red and he got a lucky shot.
Which is why they made sure virgilia couldn't enter as soon as Battler said that she has told him.

Battler had been allowed in Ep 4 to use red. The problem here is that he was using red without:
- a witch officially handing him that red
- proofs.

Bern could hand some red for which Erika had no proofs but it was likely done with Lambda's permission. Virgilia wasn't allowed to hand that red and he couldn't find anything to confirm it so, although true, that red didn't hold any value in court.

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

This doesn't change the fact that Gold came out of nowhere, or that Dlanor definitely cheated in her spar against Gaap. I just don't believe that they were cheating in EP5 with the red-blue answer session in the Court.

I wonder if Dlanor really cheated or she was simply instructed in such way by the game master. After all in Ep 5 we see that one of his underlings was forbidden from using a red she had by Lambda, the actual gamemaster so it's possible that Battler forbidden certain stuffs in order to protect Beato's secret.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It would certainly work like that, however it hinges on the assumption that anything shown in EP5 is "less credible" compared to EP1-4.

Not necessarily. It's just Battler that's lying to us about how he came to find out some stuffs. After all Ryukishi said many times that if the epitaph had been solved murders would have stopped. This doesn't happen in Ep 3 & 5 when the epitaph is solved.
Either Ryukishi is blatantly lying or it's a clue about how the epitaph wasn't solved. However in Ep 5 is sure the gold was 'found' as Erika witnessed it and saw it being showed to the siblings.
So the gold was found in a way that didn't include the epitaph being solved and the only way to do so is for Battler to be handed the solution.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But you also have to consider that it could be the other way around. That EP5 has much more important details:
'Legend' and 'Turn' were written by Yasuda (although the exact time is hard to determine, since Ange's illness was accounted for, but not Eva's death.) Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler were created on Yasuda's impression of the Battler from 6 years ago, as she didn't see him since then.
If we assume that 'End' was done by 9^9 but based on a witchhunter's forgery, then that witchhunter could have easily gotten good information about the characters by asking their colleagues or class mates.
Therefore Battler's personality in 'Legend' and 'Turn' were a red herring, while his personality in 'End' was much closer to the truth.
"Genius Battler Theory" for EP6 makes this seem more likely too.

Theoretically a piece should only be able to do what is in his possibilities. Piece Battler of Ep 1 can't solve the epitaph, in Ep 5 he solves it in a pretty smooth manner, even easier than Eva in Ep 3 (and we know she had been thinking about it by quite a while).

MetaBattler of Ep 5 confirmed he didn't have a clue about how to solve the epitaph and comment that his piece version is pretty smart and we know is piece version is being manipulated by Bern who got that knowledge by peeping on other fragments.

"............Hey, what the hell. ......The piece me is pretty damn smart. There's no room left for me to make theories."
"Oh, sorry about that. ......You weren't around at this point, so I just controlled your piece for you. .........Isn't it nice how smart I made you look...?"
"*giggle*giggle*giggle*...! It looks like you'd be wiser to let Bern be the player. ......Why not step down as the player and concentrate on being the piece instead?"
I joined in on this game on October 5, after the first few murders.
That means the piece called 'me' was controlled by the player, Bernkastel.
So, I guess that means it's possible for Bernkastel's reasoning to be announced through 'my' mouth...

Honestly, it all seems to imply the solution was handed to Battler by someone else, not that he found it.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But something I doubt a lot of people (if any) considered yet:
The chance for Erika together with Battler to solve the epitaph, or at least to get into the gold room, is higher than 0,1%. This does NOT include the chance of Battler solving the epitaph alone or solving it with groups that do not include Erika

Battler didn't actually solve it WITH Erika. He announced his reasoning and Erika confirmed it saying they were thinking alike. The only hint Erika might have given him was the Atlas... however oddly enough, instead than playing with his cousins Battler went to the library.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's impossible that Battler solved the epitaph on his own but there are hints that imply that the epitaph wasn't solved in Ep despite the gold being found and, although the idea of Battler's characterization being closer to the truth is a good and possible one the gap between the two Battlers abilities seems to wide.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

He doesn't have to know where the Gold is.
You can actually form a sound theory about Kinzo using that red we got:

battler saw Ushiromiya Kinzo. dead or Alive does not matter No one would mistake him for another.

What I want to say is: he discorvered the corpse or something like that. We even got a hint in that regard:
At the Chapel fight between him and Dlanor, at the point where he uses the golden truth, he states that there is one body that could b kinzo's.

Don't forget the red about Kinzo has actually several consequences:
1st ) You can't msitake any object for Kinzo
2nd) You cant mistake another person for kinzo
3rd) You can't mistake Kinzo for someone else


Yet the red still allows us to have seen his corpse. Don't forget Dlanor couldn't get past the Golden truth. If the body would have never been hinted she could have simply said that the case must not be resolved with clues that were not presented in red and the golden truth would have been weaker than the red one.
As you can't mistake Kinzo for someone else, the corpse batttler talk about during the scene msut have really been Kinzo's.
Otherwise you would have needed him as a body double for someone else.

Edit: Or shanon could have moved the body as if it was alive, it would still not violate the red.

The problem at this point would be: Battler while walking with Erika saw a corpse, recognized it as Kinzo... and never said a word nor showed surprise?

If Battler saw Kinzo's corpse in Ep 5 I think it's more likely he did when he was handed the solution to the epitaph. Maybe it was how Yasu/Beato/TMF19YA got his cooperation: she persuaded him to uncover Natsuhi and Krauss' lie by forcing them to confess. In the beginning Battler might have believed it was the right thing to do then he could have started feeling pity for Natsuhi.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

@ Erika fooled:
Considering how EP 4 mainly shows magic fantasy battles and leaves pretty much every corpse unobserved by battler the answer to EP 4 could indeed be that it was a prank.
This only applies to EP 6 and 4 though.
Ep 4 teaparty's red:
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you
doesn't necessarily contradict that everyone is alive if you replace the answer 'bomb' with explosion. As its source is in a hidden tunnel it would need time to reach battler.
The red about Kanon being dead wouldn't matter either, if you consider how he is just one of Shanon's personalities.

Nope, Battler saw George's corpse before meeting Beato and then investigated on the other corpses. Even though it's likely Jessica phoned him believing it was a prank or something like that and the otehrs might have cooperated under the same belief (as implied by Our Confession in which Kumasawa and Co helped believing it was all a prank) in the end they were all killed, George was even killed before Battler had the chance to say if he remembered his promise or not.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

George: Did he examine the body? Did we get a red that he was dead at that time?
Tea party: Magic scene not trustable
Kanon's EP4 red: He has most likely no body of his own, so this red shouldn't be taken to literally imho.

Then, .........I saw George-aniki's weather-beaten corpse...
"............Aniki...............Damn......... ..."

The corpse was in front of the arbor.

If he had died under the arbor, he might have at least been spared being beaten down upon by the rain...

In Aniki's forehead was a gaping hole, as though he had been shot with a gun.

Perhaps because the rain had washed everything away, his face wasn't covered with blood, ......and so he looked almost like he was sleeping.

...However, his clothes were stained a deep red, and there were still signs that a large amount of blood had flowed out...

How happy I'd be if he were sleeping, or else pretending to be dead...

......But even though the rain sprayed against Aniki's eyes, they remained open.

......And, ......the hole in his forehead was, in all seriousness, ......the real thing...

There had been a faint chance that even Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san hanging by their necks in the gardening shed had been a bad joke.

But that naive possibility had now been completely denied.

And, as I looked at this corpse, I became completely sure.

I'll say George is definitely dead.