[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

No it doesn't. We have no idea what effort the politicians went through to even do that much and in the end it was still made an issue by the story. Not even close to a whim.

The only one who made an issue out of it was Cagalli. Yes, I'm sure Uzumi and the others in the government were not happy with it, but in the end they all recognized the value they got out of it.

Yes but there is no suggestion that they joined the Alliance on the basis that Orb suffered from the Julius Seven incident.

The Alliance was reformed in Destiny because of Junius 7.

The issue of the sustainability of Orb's ideals has no relevance to my point about how there is leeway in their ideals. We can debate about that too but I'd like to get this point out of the way first.

Well, there are two ways that I can see for there to be leeway:

1. Exceptions and edge cases are somehow codified.

or

2. The 3 claims are not taken literally.

If you take the second approach, that brings us to:

Certainly. But it's still a very strong false equivalence.

This is where the second approach comes in. If the claim is not taken literally, then it doesn't have to be an actual invasion. It just means that Orb will protect itself from external threats.

I very much doubt that they would accept the legality of that, especially when that definitely goes against their ideals. Just because AF did it, doesn't mean it's legitimate.

Maybe not legally (although that's debatable as there's no organization like the UN to enforce international laws), but practically, yes, because Orb was powerless and without some of its leaders (who had conveniently just killed themselves).

But the core ideal is neutrality.

It may be an ideal, but it can never be an end to itself. The end goal is to protect Orb.

Cagalli's father right after he found out that they were making weapons for AF under his watch.

Oh, him. No, he never resigned.

But it definitely proves that Cagalli's father wasn't abandoning his ideals. And in the end it didn't really fail their country.

Right, tell that to the people who suddenly saw their country being overtaken by a foreign nation.

But Cagalli's father as as well as all those politicians thought they were maintaining ideals which is the point. Your point was that they break it at a whim and that this was an example of it but this is definitely not evidence of it. They were not breaking their ideals at a whim.

Why not? Because of a line uttered in defiance? I have no doubt that Uzumi and his colleagues thought they were doing the right thing. But in the end, their actions still reduced Orb's chance of fighting the AF's invasion.

I never said it wasn't legitimate. I said the show doesn't portray it as even remotely okay and that it was out of character.

No, the show definitely does not portray it as being out of character. The show portrays it as being a different approach toward the end goal of ensuring Orb's safety given their situation. Hence, why Cagalli had no legitimate means of preventing Orb from joining the Alliance.

Just to clarify on something:

When I said "at whim" in an earlier post, I don't actually mean there was no thought behind it or that it was carelessly decided upon. I meant that this wasn't something on the level of adding a new Amendment to the US Constitution. It was more like something that Uzumi could discuss with his cabinet members and then make a decision upon.