[Haak]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Sure would like their citations for that, since Gundam wiki is bloody notorious for false information. And lo and behold, both of the excerpts you took from it lack proper citations for their info, when all of the media thus far have said it was the N-Jammer Canceler that got banned from use on mobile suits.

Originally Posted by monster

The NJC was banned.

What media? I've already asked you for this. If you have some other source then show it to me. Am I really being that unreasonable?

You're the ones making a claim that NJC has been banned. It's up to you to prove it.

Spoiler for monster:

The rest of the Orb government wouldn't either because of the ban.

Lol.

And that's all that matters. Now let's move on.

You're your just going to completely ignore logic just because you feel like it?

No, I'm afraid it does matter. The point you maid was that MAD wasn't a factor becuase the EA didn't care about the conseuunces. That point is false as I have shown.

Uh, no, again, Yzak's mother addressed that in her speech. They knew it was coming.

They knew EA would launch a strike sooner or later and that ZAFT needed to destroy them first before the EA destroyed them. That doesn't mean they knew that nuclear strike was coming. Hence why they were surprised.

And it was a success.

One success =/= almost a certainty.

It's not the truth when it never happened.

They practically said it themselves that they only just made it in time. So yeah, it is true.

Where did you get that information? And please use official source instead of an unofficial wiki.

It's called logic and reasoning. Why would they build the GENESIS if they didn't suspect the EA might be able to use nuclear weapons again? Shits and giggles? Why do you think they built a giant weapon they had no intention of using until the nuclear strikes happened?

They didn't think they need to, especially with the Destroys. Nope, after the loss of Orb's mass driver, the EA blamed Freedom and Justice for slowing them down. Orb wasn't even a factor. So they obviously didn't think it's impossible to get whatever they want from Orb.

And where are you getting that information from I wonder? Orb can destroy it's own Mass driver any time it wants. Freedom and Justice have nothing to do with it.

The objective is to destroy the PLANTs. Using nuclear weapons/Requiem at the PLANTs help them achieve that objective

And how does limiting nuclear weapons at only PLANT and not any other ZAFT targets help? That's what I was asking remember?

Like Uzumi was willing to sacrifice himself.

They don't actually have to go through with it you know. That's kinda the whole point of it being a deterrence.

The EA wasn't looking for it and didn't need it.

So point proven then. Orb can hide and destory whatever they want. The EA isn't going to get anything out of Orb.

If you don't think you can win against a potential aggressor, then you shouldn't aggravate them.
That makes sense to me.

You know what also makes sense? Deterring them if you think you can. Something you yourself accepted. Now you're saying no to that to? Then what was the point of this debate if you weren't going to accept that anyway?

Yeah, but it's irrelevant. We don't always wait until we have to do it.

For a complete 180 turn when there's no danger yet? Your point was that they had to and accepted that if they didn't need to then they shouldn't have. That's what you said.

Well, here's my point:

The EA has attacked Orb with no provocation. With that experience, Orb, especially with the Seirans' influence, doesn't have a reason to believe that they could deter an attack from the EA. Given that perspective, joining the EA helps them to stay on the EA's good side.

No that wasn't you're point. When I gave reasons as to why Orb can reasonably think they can deter the EA (EA won't get anything out of it and have no reason to attack Orb at all) you said they wouldn't come to that conclusion because of that perspective you are know saying rests on them believing they can't deter the EA. That is circular logic.

Either:

1) They have thought through the reasons have have come to the conclusion that the EA will invade them if they don't join.

or

2) The idea of the EA invading them if they don't join prevents them from considering any other perspective.

You can't have it both ways.

Of course. The whole point is that IF the EA had a reason to attack Orb, Orb wasn't strong enough to deter them.
Thus, joining the EA was a preemptive move so that the EA would not have a reason to attack.

So Orb deterred ZAFT then.

And with the proper reasons Orb could deter EA. Point proven.

Spoiler for Znozzy:

Originally Posted by Znozzy

But they do, Orb was afraid of the EA's military after what happened in SEED.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't consider deterrence. Like I said with monster, either you say that the invasion prevented them from considering deterrence, or they already came to the conclusion they couldn't deter the EA.

But they did, After the Attha's ran the country into the ground with the previous war with the EA in Seed, of course the opposition (in this case the Seirans) are going to rise in power, it's like that in pretty much every war. Mubarak(or was it Qadaffi?) recently got overthrown, even though he had been in power for decades. same thing with the revolutions all over the world, if a country is unhappy with its leadership, things will change, most of the time it simply happens with a election.

But in Orb, them taking the power from cagalli simply meant they had the power over her, we arent given enough details to speculate how retarded Orbs parliament is, only that people wear purple coats, oh, and the 5 royal families and all.

Those lead to official changes in power. The Seiran's power was never official. There was no poular uprising. Cagalii was still legally the chief representative. The Seirans had more influence but not legally. Their ideals were never stronger than Uzumi's and there's nothing in the story to suggest it was. And no, the fact tha the treaty happened isn't proof of that because it could just as easily be an out of character plot hole as i keep saying and the fact that he treaty happened isn't proof that it's for the reasons you say it did. Give me, something, anything, in the show that specifically the Seirans following their own traditional motto which is on the same level as Uzumi's. Give one piece of info that suggests the people had decided to abandon thei culture they apparently held onto throughout enduring times.

I've already made this point.

Also we don't know how the cultural impact was in Orb when the seirans took over, if anything, they could've been running the same type of politics as Uzumi did when he was in charge, with a slight change in military interventions and international politics.

If we don't know anything then I can only assume nothing has changed unless shown otherwise. Remember there's nothing to suggest the Seirans' foreign policy ideas popular with the people.

But your point is meaningless since you have nothing to back it up with except your own opinions? you've made your point clear several times, it's all talk and no context though, thats the part you don't seem to get. Stop crying wolf and your opinion might carry a tad bit of weight in the future.

So you at least understand what my point is right? Thank the freaking lord...

No, he said it wouldn't be the same as heliopolis, he never said anything about complete annihilation, out of the way he acted, one can assume he wouldnt be stupid enough to go in guns blazing with 4 mobile suits and a submarine against a fully armed country.

No? He didn't mention ZAFT at all? Funny I could've sworn he did.

He never said anything about complete annihilation but Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen, hence why he never said it. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.

No, Logic isnt based on opinion, logic is based on cold logical facts, your opinion is not logical, you are not Spock or vulcan by any means.

Dude. If I say you haven't provided any evidence to say that the Seirans have the amounth of legal and cultural power you think they do, then that's not an opinion. It's either true or it isn't. The evidence is either there or it isn't.

And anyway, why is my opinion not logical? All you've said is that it's just my opinion. You never actually addressed the logic my opinion rests on.

But i've denied things several times and even quoted episodes when your opinion/facts clearly don't hold up, but you only call BS, ignore them and keep repeating the same thing.

Because all you're doing is denying it and just saying it's opinion.

Also: Wikia is the worst place to use as a source seeing how entire pages of there are pure fanfic/fan speculations without any official material, you'd be better off linking to 4chan. and that should tell you something about the wikia quality

And yet it's still better than your fan speculations...