[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by Birdway

"rules of normal magic" uh. There is magic that normal magicians can deal with and there is different, more outworldly magic as well. Those came from grimoires, their existence pollutes the world by just existing.

What evidence do you have to suggest that Grimoires consist of otherworldly magic? None of the Grimoires we've seen have been able to do anything that defies the rules of magic as we understand them. They all enforce supernatural settings on the world using mana. It's just that, since they are filled with high quality magic arrays, they take the place of both incantation and spiritual items, allowing them to auto-cast magic without further preparation.

Besides, who do you think wrote those Grimoires? They didn't just spin themselves out of the aether, they were written by their authors and those authors were Magicians. You cannot write what you don't know, therefore at a fundamental level, Grimoires cannot exceed the realm of human knowledge. The only exception is the Book of Law, because it contains knowledge that came from Aiwass.

Originally Posted by Birdway

There is a process to become a magic god, for Othinus, it comes from NT10(which isn't on sales yet) and for Ollerus, Silvya said he had to master several grimoires. The knowledge opens a path to reach for power that goes beyond the world rules, to me she is on the gate for that level but isn't able to step beyond that due to the restrains she has on her.

The fact that Ollerus failed shows that the Grimoires alone are not enough. In all likelihood, he was going to attempt the same ritual as Othinus, but because he chose to save a cat instead, he was beaten to it. His powers likely stemmed from what parts of the ritual he did manage to perform, but we'll need to read NT10 to confirm it.

Index may be on the gate to that level, but there is a huge difference from being one step away from the territory of the Magic God and taking one step inside it. Although she is almost there, at the moment, she is still fully within the territory of man.

Originally Posted by Birdway

And didn't he panic because of he thought the sprinklers messed up with his cards? Then Innocentius appeared and regained confidence, what Styil did at that moment? He commanded Innocentius to kill Touma.

My point is, Innocentius can act autonomously without Stiyl needing to concentrate on it. he can to control it, but he doesn't need to as long as he provides it mana. You haven't denied my point.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Unlike Innocentius that draws fire from nothing, Sherry gets the materials from the earth, the auto-pilot just follows the commands set by Sherry but she still needed to have a hold on her golem.

It kept on moving after she was knocked out. I find that your definition of having a hold on something is very flexible.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Also, Styil never fought Sherry.

Sorry, I meant to say "It was the lack of control that dropped her accuracy and let Stiyl evade [Index's] attacks".

Originally Posted by Birdway

The output of her JP mode is the whole of her capabilities. Accuracy, speed, power, etc affects the efficiency overall, one doesn't works without the other.

Then according to your definition, I concede that her output decreased. However, according to my definition, which only takes power into account, it hasn't. My point is that he spells hit just as hard as normally.

We started arguing about this because you said that the fact that the wings are only as powerful as all her other spells was due to her being held back. However, if her wings were at full power, then regardless of how you define output, that confirms that her wings are the same as all her other spells.

Originally Posted by Birdway

And what do you think that time was for?

To keep on living another minute? To give Touma a chance to knock Fiamma out?

Originally Posted by Birdway

What you bolded proves what I say, she foccused oll of her capabilities on removing the restrain card. And that would leave nothing left to Fiamma.

Those events were happening at the same time, not one after other.

While Styil fought Index, Touma fought Fiamma and when Styil restrained Index, an change occurred for Fiamma at the same time.

Prove that they happened at the same time.

Originally Posted by Birdway

The way I see it is that the leaders could provide that information just like the Patriarch, the former Pope and Laura could, and Laura doesn't needs to rely only on Index or else how would've done the times she is within AC?
Carrisa only forced to work with them since Laura didn't bother too much with the outcome of the war, it's was fine for her anyway. However it would be a problem is Carrisa starts rampaging agian on the Anglicans HQ.

We can just agree to disagree.

The flaw with that argument is that it doesn't explain why Laura said she would "reward" Stiyl's efforts. Simply helping with the Star of Bethlem would have done nothing to improve his situation in any way.

I don't see why you find Laura subduing Index so unrealistic. TAMNI contains precedent for a situation such as this. Accelerator is much, much more powerful than Amata Kihara, yet the scientist managed to beat him to the curb because he is the one who developed his Vector Redirection power. He knew all the ins and outs of that level 5 and knew how to exploit them to win despite the difference in power. Similarly, Laura created the Index Librorum Prohibitum. If anyone can subdue a raging Pendex without a Remote, she can.

Also, more food for thought:

Originally Posted by Volume 1

“What will you gain by fighting?” Kanzaki seemed legitimately confused. “Even if you did defeat me, Necessarius awaits behind me. I may have said I was one of the top 10 magicians in London, but there are those stronger than me. …From the Church’s point of view, I am nothing more than a subordinate sent out to this Far East island nation.”

Originally Posted by Volume 17

“The one to stand before me should be, at the very least, the head of the Anglican Church,” Knight Leader said quietly as he cracked his knuckles. “No, the church simply does not have enough strength. I respect the royal family, but I stand above them when it comes to violence. Frankly speaking, you simply aren’t up to the task.”

This information can be taken to imply that Laura Stuart is more powerful than Kanzaki. With a few exceptions, TAMNI is a series that follows the Authority Equals Asskicking trope, so it would be very much in line with the rest of the series.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Eidetic memory is just the formal name of perfect memory. Now you're admitting Index is impressive, why would she? Didn't you never wonder why Index doesn't has a back-up in case she dies? To this I say, it's because she is special.

But in real life, true cases of long term Eidetic memory have never been confirmed, only short term cases. The subject is still slightly controversial. If Index is a perfect case of such memory, that would be enough to make her truly unique.

Besides, how do you know that Index doesn't have a back-up hidden in London's Tower? It would be a nice twist.

Originally Posted by Birdway

No, Tecpatl himself said he prepared himself long ago for this time, since he took over the cabal. So no, you don't know how all of these protections works or what they're working for we can only makes a guess about the part and not the about the whole because we lack more information so far.

Originally Posted by Volume 19

“The gap of experience between yours and mine is too large. Secondly, your protection measures when using the grimoire are too inferior. If you plan to use these grimoires as weapons, taking measures to prevent knowledge flowing in reverse is the most basic precaution.”

...

“… If you truly were suitable for the knowledge of that grimoire original, you would not have ended up like this. To prevent the contamination of the grimoire original, you took measures preventing it. Forget about spreading its knowledge, you wouldn’t even read the knowledge within it yourself. Did you believe that the grimoire would allow itself to become a ‘dead end’? …”

It seems pretty clear to me that all he did was stop the Grimoire from spreading its knowledge to his mind. We don't know how that protection works, but we know its effects. It is a lot less restrictive than Index's protection which violates even the mana and mind.

Originally Posted by Birdway

The mana comes from the life force, and Index knows how to refine it and any grimoire will search for a way to spread it's knowledge, not just that Index technically uses magic, do you really think the Force Chant and Spell Intercept works just because she says some words without any magic working behind??

Yes, yes I do, and there's nothing anywhere in the text that contradicts that view. To begin with, professional magicians were there when she used those techniques. If they weren't something you could do without magic, they would have noticed.

Originally Posted by Birdway

Grimoires aren't omnipotent but like I said before they are like virus, indestructible, with no cure (Aureolus only worked on temporal cures when he worked for the RCC). If that wasn't the case any normal person could see the contents and walk away fine.

To make an analogy to real viruses, there are ways to neutralize them. Many species of virus, most famously retroviruses like HIV, have the ability to insert their genetic material into the genomes of infected cells and thus persist indefinitely. However, evolution has found a way around that. By relegating the viral DNA into intronic sequences or tightly packed heterochromatin that never get expressed, they can force the virus into a dormant state from which it can never awaken. The human genome alone is littered with inactive viruses.

Index's protection systems do something similar. They force the Grimoires into a state where they are simply physically incapable of doing harm.

Originally Posted by Birdway

The miracles. Miracles Fiamma himself said to use.

The miracles Fiamma is talking about are obviously different from the ones Arisa can cause. For one, Fiamma was really full of himself. For all his talk about miracles, his magic did not make anyone else happy like what Arisa did. Furthermore, Arisa's power was not negated by IB, when the Holy Right was.

You're arguing that this is because she mixes in science with the magic, but the science part has nothing to do with her power, so it makes no sense. Besides, who ever said that miracles have to be magic?