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Old 2015-03-18, 09:12   Link #34955
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
In my theory, Rosa would have had created the forgeries, CotGW and the resolve to commit the murders between November 1985 and October 1986.
I'm nitpicking, but Legend, Turn and Confession aren't exactly "forgeries", as they are in fact written by "Ushiromiya Maria", the person behind Beatrice. Forgeries are fake message bottles by other people that are presented as written by "Ushiromiya Maria".

As an actual comment, why couldn't Rosa write the message bottles earlier? Sayo began writing the message bottles soon after hearing that Battler is going to return, surely if he would return a year earlier, the same could happen. But there not being all the resolve for the crime yet at that point is a valid answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Again this is not perfect. If I may ask a question, how come a lot of people hate this theory? Rosatrice is actually a pretty good theory. I know a lot of its believers didn't even think to come up to this theory but still. It is plausible, possible, and consistent with the red truths in the story.
I think a lot of people hate the theory because its supporters often come off as elitists, who know "the real truth" most people are too stupid to notice, and many people jump on the bandwagon without thinking deeper about it themselves. It would be fine to present it as an alternative theory, but Ryukishi has already made it pretty clear what the real answer is. In my opinion Rosatrice is, while perhaps possible with certain logic, still inferior to Sayotrice in its ability to create a coherent answer to everything. Keep theorising about Rosatrice as an alternative solution, by all means, as it can evolve. But it can never replace Sayotrice as the driving force behind Umineko's mysteries.

I wrote a couple of blog posts countering KnownNoMore's Rosatrice videos some time ago, if you'd like to take a look:
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....satrice-part-i
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....atrice-part-ii

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 2: Rosa calling the servants furniture, a term that was created by Yasu and these words were heard by Battler himself.
It is entirely possible the Beatrice that bribed Rosa used the term before, in a letter, for example. Rosa just took on the word herself, or was instructed to use it. EP8 manga also says that "a servant has to be like furniture" is a rule of Genji's, so Yasuda might not have invented that term in connection to the servants after all. Rosa might have learned the term from him ages ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 2: In the meta-world, Beatrice seems to know of Rosa's bad experiences very well and what Rosa wanted to do to her siblings. Like, Beatrice said that Rosa wanted to bite off Eva's tongue. This seems like something someone wouldn't say out loud and would keep to themselves. Wouldn't this make Rosa a potential killer, wanting to kill or step over those that wronged her (e.g. EP7 when she didn't back Eva up)?
My theory is that the EP2 Tea Party is a meta representation of the letter Rosa received from Beatrice that invited her to be an accomplice to a murder game, what Rosa thought about it when she first read it and after she realised Beatrice was really going to kill everyone. She imagined her revenge, but when confronted with a real situation, she couldn't stomach it.

Also, Sayo too knows that the siblings didn't get along that well, and played with that to motivate Rosa. She might not know the exact words Rosa had in her head, unless she actually said it to Eva or someone else at some point, but maybe that isn't so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 4: Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth.

It is shown that the shutter was locked by George under Battler's surveillance and that he gave the key to Gohda via window. Taking Willard's solution into account, doesn't this translate George switching the labels of the keys or the wrong key? Doesn't this make George suspicious? Also, why would George not lock the shutter for Gohda and Kumasawa? If anything it should serve as a shelter for protection for the two of them, if the cousins believed that people were being killed.
George doesn't need to be the one to switch the labels on the keys, as long as Kumasawa and Gohda are in on it. They still think it's all a game, having lied about demons and witches to the cousins before. Also, none of the keys in the servant's room actually have labels, as seen in EP1. Gohda and Kumasawa would immediately realise there is something fishy about the key, but the cousins should not. I'm a bit proud about figuring out the solution to this closed room a long time ago, hehe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 6: Maria said that Rosa killed everyone (typed as "the others" by Witch Hunt). In Japanese, she said "everyone". Doesn't this point at Rosa having potentially killed everyone? We know that she only killed Sakutaro and Chiester 556, so that shouldn't translate as being "everyone". Plus Sakutaro was with her, so she should have at least referred to Chiester 556.
I think this is up to interpretation, and could refer to just 556 and Sakutarou. Couldn't there also have been more toys Rosa broke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
That is a good interpretation right there. Your interpretation is the same one that I had in mind, but your is actually much more detailed and constructive.
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- What's your take about the part that Higurashi is a novel in the VN, Lambdadelta and Bernkastel as TV characters in the manga and Higurashi as a TV show in the anime?
The Higurashi novel might have some relation to the one Ooishi and Akasaka wrote at the end of Himatsubushi-hen. Battler refers to Keiichi's mom as the mother of the main character, though, and I'm not sure that Ooishi and Akasaka would write that book from Keiichi's perspective. It is possible that Higurashi is a novel Ikuko released earlier, which I doubt, as she said that she hadn't shown her manuscripts to anyone before Touya. My guess would be that there is someone else in that fragment that had access to the meta world somehow, as a piece of a witch involved with Higurashi. Or it is a book based to a degree on real events in Umineko's world, perhaps written by someone from Higurashi. We don't know if it involves the plot of multiple timelines.

About the TV shows, well, Higurashi could have been adapted from the novel and... Bern and Lambda once happened to contact someone who thought they'd make great cartoon characters? Featherine is messing around? Don't think about it too much, you'll just get a headache. By the way, while everyone refers to the show in the anime as Higurashi, all clips are actually from the Urahigu skits that came with the Kai DVDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Skylark 13 and Okonogi in 1998?
I do think that Amakusa Juuza is Skylark 13 and Okonogi is Okonogi. As in, they are the same people that appear in Higurashi, but in another fragment, where the Hinamizawa disaster might not have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- The Ange in the meta-world that said in red that she came from a world where nobody came home?
In the world where Battler and Eva survived, no one did come home to her. That means Rudolf, Kyrie or Battler. Gretel is the Ange from 1998 who thought that only Eva survived, and had yet to meet Touya. And even then Battler would never actually come home, but that isn't important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- The part when Ange was about to choose the trick ending and the magic ending, in the narration that narrated a bit on Ange's thoughts, there were the purple text of the words "left" and "right". Doesn't this suggest that Bernkastel is the true game master and that the Bernkastel and Battler that fought were pieces on a meta-level? What do you think?
I think that Beatrice just borrowed Bernkastel's idea, to highlight the question of if Beatrice can be trusted. Even if you trust everything she says, the sleight of hand is all logical. But if she lies as the culprit, she can also make it an impossible magic trick. I'm not actually sure about all of this riddle's implications, so I'd like to hear your interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Also, have you read Higurashi Hou? There was also a phenomenon that seemed to resemble the meta-world when Hanyuu talked with Tamura-hime-mikoto. And it was also established that they were actually aliens, including Une. What's your take on this? Are they witches too?
I have indeed read Hou. While I'd like a clarification from Ryukishi how canon Outbreak and Kamikanshi-hen actually are, they have elements that fit. I think Hanyuu, Tamurahime no Mikoto and Une are metaphysical beings similar to those in Umineko that are born of the idea of the different tribes of brain parasites. The parasites are their vessels, the anti-fantasy version of them. The brain parasites cannot travel between fragments, but at least Hanyuu has powers similar to voyager witches in that she can observe different fragments. I don't remember if Tamura and Une did that. Them being aliens probably refers to the brain parasites originating from outer space, but could also refer to an ability to traverse the sea of fragments searching for a fitting one to live in.

Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-18 at 15:08. Reason: Whoops
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