[Doom_Paperclip]

Spoiler for @LevelSeven, now you know what Touma felt like in NT9 too:

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

BIB: yeah, but he is the best/only example i have :/ the others are one-shot thugs who are gone after being hit actually, repeated low-lvl exposure agaisnt lightning can still mess up your body in some "not-really-pretty" ways, but this is mostly played for laughs

So you concede you don't really have much to make an argument on. You didn't have anything to say about my comment on Heaven Canceller either.

she wasnt really damaged in the first place :/
it paralyzed her a bit but this is it... i admit, i dont really understand how someone can force themselfes out of this,
afterall it isnt like a magic-seal that prevents her movements which only needs to be broken with enough strength but this mostlikely falls under "suspension of disbelief" :/

Recovery doesn't necessarily imply healing. If someone hits you in the stomach it can knock the wind out of you, causing you to stop breathing temporarily. You can recover and start breathing again, yet still have a bruise to show for it. In this case, she just took back control of her nerves and pushed past the damage so that she wouldn't be hit by the concrete, but she didn't heal, otherwise the word "forcibly" wouldn't have been used.

her attacks only had a chance to hit after brun was pinned down...
another example:

[...]

the outcome is the same but the way is also important, because it means that if she cant react before the action is taken (or with some sort of trick like the iron-sand-footprints) than she is screwed

Listen, in battles, results are everything. There is no cosmic referee looking down on battles who will descend from the heavens to say "Wait Mikoto, you cheated! You only hit because you pinned Brunhild down! Yellow card, and Brunhild gets a penalty shot!". What matters is that Mikoto managed to hit and Brunhild did not. Arguing about Mikoto's senses not keeping up, or only hitting when she pins Brunhild down or dodging before the attacks start ect... that's all a waste of time, both yours and mine.

You say that it's a problem because if Mikoto can't keep her tricks up, then she's screwed. However, I just need to prove that Mikoto was able to hurt Brunhild and provide a challenge, thus forcing the Saint to go at 100%, not that Mikoto would win. Thus whether she can keep it up long enough to win or not doesn't matter.

i dont want long paragraphs, but the "breaker of god" doesnt show up everytime she does saint-stuff, it is a optional spell in order to mostlikely fight angels(and aside from OT4 she never fought divine beings again)...

Only 1), she can't have expected to ever fight an Angel in her lifetime, and 2), Yuisen is a spell expressly stated to be able to cut an Angel, yet she uses it all the time. Besides, though she never fought an actual Divine being directly again, she fought Brunhild with Gungnir, a God's weapon, Mjolnir, another God's weapon, Acqua, who wielded the power of Gabriel, and Carissa with Curtana Original, which draws power from Michael. She had a hard time in all of those battles, so it makes no sense for her to have held any spells back. I find it more believable that Kamachi simply got tired of the name "breaker of god" and decided not to mention it ever again even though she still uses it. You know, kind of like Himegami never gets any attention anymore.

yeah, seems like it
but this still doesnt mean that saints get tired superfast :/

everyone has limits (aside from cheat-chars like kakines immortal-DM-body)...
kanzaki surely too, but who wouldnt be exhausted after this?

Doesn't mean they don't either. I argued that Saints get tired quickly and provided evidence. No matter how flimsy that evidence may be, it is better than nothing. You have yet to provide any real evidence to disprove my claims.

the fight with kaori vs acqua,
it began after kaori showed up, they fought, touma woke up, had his inner thoughts, started to go to the battlefield, itsuwa woke up from her unconsciousness, thought about touma and about kaori, and toumas talk with mikoto and also his arrivel at the fighting scene...
all of this surely took at least 5 or 10 minutes :/ and kaori was exhausted because she was pushed to her limits, brun wouldnt need such speed while fighting mikoto :/

So 5 to 10 minutes is a long time for you. Every day must feel like an eternity to you, then. Good to know.

The bottom line is, using Saint powers hurts the user over time, but using Esper powers does not. Mikoto could use her powers all day (and in fact, she does. All Espers do. That's how AIM is made) and not break a single capillary, but Brunhild could not. In a battle of pure endurance, in a theoretical situation where damage due to power use were the only factor, Brunhild would take more damage than Mikoto.

Of course, battles are decided by more than that. However, this does prove that time is not Brunhild's ally, but Mikoto's. Brunhild has an interest in not making the battle last forever.

the bolded part is where you make a mistake, the amount of "effort" needs to be included too, plus, why does mikotos life gets negative if bruns "gains" are calculated, the value of her life has the same amount, the "gain" after killing her or lettign her live shouldnt affect this...

therefore: x=a/b, y=a/c, the only variable is "b" and "c", and i think that killing her takes more effort than keeping her busy... therefore: b<c, which means x>y

BIB: in such cases most people simply look at the things they gain from killing the "opponent", if it isnt worth it they wouldnt give it their all, and i showed above that it wouldnt be worth going after her life if killing takes more effort than "not killing"

The value of Mikoto's life is a constant, but whether that constant is added or subtracted changes according to Brunhild's result. When Brunhild spares Mikoto, she gains any value that Mikoto holds for her, so she gains a. When Brunhild kills Mikoto, she loses any value Mikoto held to her because now she's dead, so she loses a, therefore she gains -a. My formula stands, so your argument is invalid.

what i tried to show was that her performance gets altered by her the existence of bloodlust or not, if she had bloodlust towards othinus like silvia than she would have tortured touma too, since she didnt have a personal grudge she didnt do it...

Her behavior changes according to bloodlust, not her performance. We're measuring how effective she is in battle, not how cruel she is.

this depends on the duration of the prolonged battle and the energy-expense of the "one-shot"-kill-attack...

the thing is, i never tried to say that brun would gain a easy win (if it looked like that, sorry), i simply dont think that she went with everything she had, the way the fight happened, her emotionless behavior and also that she didnt have a real reason to actively go after mikotos life are indicators that she didnt go all out, on the other hand mikoto actually used everything she was able to do :/

im sure, if she had some one-shot-kill she would have used it

BIB: and if that doesnt work than "keeping her away from the "decisive" fight with the least amount of effort possible" sounds like the next best option, and in my eyes the way the fight was written looks like that

Brunhild kept on the offensive the whole time. Doesn't seem like the best way to save energy to me.

than agree to disagree :/

After you.

agree, but it doesnt really mean that people would follow it

Brunhild is a professional. If you think she can't even follow this basic rule, then the one underestimating her isn't me, it's you.

i agree, but the boy wasnt directly connected...

He wasn't in NT10 either. Didn't make her anymore merciful towards Othinus.

not everyone can do this, if it was so easy nobody would fear saints :/

Anyone who can't do this is no threat to her in the first place. What good would analyzing one measly spell do for them if they can't deal with the difference in stats?

To sum it up, if they can neutralize her Saint/Valkyrie powers, Brunhild's spell becomes useless, so she loses nothing by showing extra spells. If they can't neutralize her powers, she can beat them without extra spells, so she loses nothing by showing them.

Finally, Brunhild's greatest weakness, that her powers cancel out every 3 months, can be exploited by anyone without any preparation. In the face of that glaring flaw, any other weakness is insignificant in comparison.

with a different example: do you calculate the way how a ball (in football) will be shot into the goal from you feet? i dont, it is mostly subconscious, and stuff like kakines abilitys cant even be calculated, i mean, who could tell him what h should calculate in order to create a mass that never existed before?

Only you don't use math to play football. Different areas of the brain apply, so your example isn't really relevant.

As for Kakine, I'm sure it involves lots of complex numbers and high degree differential equations or something.

yes and no, im trying to say that brun didnt go with 100%, im not saying that mikoto is light years away...

And yet everything you've done is try to say that Mikoto is insignificant in comparison to Brunhild.

but kaori was never her objective, no reason to go all out:

She was testing Kaori. How could the test be of any value if she didn't use her full power?

maybe i was to fast because we cant say she doesnt have AoE spells based on this "fight",
first: she was close to that boy, a AoE spell could very well become dangerous for him too, plus, she needed to protect him while fighting 10 of them at once...
and second: before the fight even began silvia walked into the room :/
the fight happened off-screen but the result seemed to have been a easy win for the 3 monsters

If she can't control the effect to not include the space she occupies, those would be very crappy AOE attacks. As for the fight being an easy win, Birdway has enough AOE attacks for an army. Note how her use of AOE attacks didn't seem to put the boy in any danger whatsoever.

Either way, I've made several arguments against Brunhild having any spells she hasn't shown us and the best you can say is "OK, but you didn't prove it 100%". We already agreed not to accept groundless speculation, so unless you have actual evidence that hints at these spells you're so sure she has, I must ask you to concede this point to me.

that means that it is possible, and saints in acquas case it isnt "creation" but "restoration" it shouldnt make him inferior, afterall it basically sets his body back to his natural state instead of twisting it

What's the difference between creating and restoring? It's not like they can rewind time, so either way, they have to twist his current body shape into something different. Whether that new shape is his original shape or not, the manipulation involved doesn't change.

They might have some success if they read his DNA to figure out how he was supposed to be, but that's a Science Side thing. They would have a lot more success mass producing Saints if they had access to AC's cloning technology.

heaven cancellar wouldnt really care about science/magic but i know what you mean, still, it doesnt really make that much sense, there are surely many legends where lost body parts growed/returned back to the owner :/

OK, then name me one example of such a legend. Also, legends relating to Gods don't count, since spells like that would fall under the domain of Magic Gods.

As for Heaven Canceller, I'm sure he'd gladly treat Fiamma. I'm not so sure Fiamma would think to rely on him, though. It's a psychological issue. Magic Side people try to solve problems with Magic Side methods, so they don't think about Science Side solutions usually.