[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

No it wasn't. The Destiny Plan was presented as a morally bad idea, not an unworkable one.

It's both; but the morality of it was the more pertinent point. Thematically, it is presented as unworkable.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Durandal's Destiny Plan doesn't depend on Mars in any way, and I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that it did. Mars is relevant to this discussion because it serves as proof that the Destiny Plan does work at what it sets out to do.

If the Destiny Plan has nothing to do with Mars, then how the heck is Mars supposed to be relevant to it? And then there's the sheer aesthetic inanity of blaming a show for the poor handling of a story point that's not even in the show that's in question.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Personal opinion, one which I really don't see how you could argue. When the main protagonist is upsurped and goes from hero imagry and music to villainy for no addressed reason, and originally minor characters from the first season upsurp the plot and steal the title of protagonist, you have serious thematic issues.

That's because the main themes stayed the same regardless of who you think the protagonist is. The most important of which was that being well-meaning is not enough; it's necessary to couple that with actions that would actually further that well-meaning cause. The point of Shinn's character was to show just how a character who wanted the best in the world could end up sabotaging his own beliefs. While you might think that this is just my personal opinion, it's also one that's ridiculously easy to argue for because it's well-supported by the show itself.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

... you're actually making an analogy implying that Lacus and co really had no intention of seriously looking at the Destiny Plan since they were already carrying on the war with Durandal?

Well, yes, that is what I've been saying for awhile...

Actually, you'd be wrong if that what you've been saying. Lacus was interested in the details of the Destiny Plan - we can see the efforts she went to to try to piece it together. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that she felt it necessary to refute it point-by-point. This is even more obvious given that Durandal never laid out the details of his plan in the first place.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

It was the first shot in the battle without warning. That's a first strike.

The Battle of the Indian Ocean had the Requiem?

Kira intervened to try and stop the fighting by means of having Cagelli get Orb to pull out, which would also leave the EA fleet in the lurch. He was trying to stop the battle so Orb forces wouldn't fight.

Why are you talking about that battle when I'm obviously speaking of the final one? I addressed the Indian Ocean one further down.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Not only is that bull crap, Mwu was the superior. He was in charge of the operations, the kids, and he fought in them himself.

No idea where you get the idea that people aren't responsible for their own actions.

Let's list the offenses:

Inciting a war by attacking a peaceful nation without provocation
This is the responsibility of the ones giving the orders - most likely Djibril.

use of mentally handicapped children as soldiers
Responsibility of the ones who brought up the children. Note that the Extended don't really qualify as child soldiers by the time Mwu leads them.

controlling subordinates through drugs, hypnosis, and other conditioning methods
I'm unaware of this being a war crime; especially since indoctrination would also be considered a conditioning method, and all militaries use it.

Do you have any other crimes to bring to the table?

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Who in the world said that fire-bombing Tokyo wouldn't be considered a war crime now?

Everyone who knows anything about war crimes would come to that conclusion. Attacking military infrastructure has always been a legal military action, even if that infrastructure happnes to be within a city.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Actually, the retcons in the post-series special editions and movies take presidence.

And since they are animated material, that sort of proves my point, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Yes, she is. She's also a politician who will compromise them to achieve them, but she's consistently followed her personal beliefs and ideals of what's best throughout the series.

Uh, that's not what an idealist is. You might want to try again.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

Congratulations: you just learned that lots of military philosophy is weak and only as strong as you want to believe it to.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from. On a fundamental level, military philosophy works quite nicely.

Originally Posted by Dan_the_Man

First, he isn't a soldier anymore; civilians aren't allowed to go out and hunt down enemy forces. Second, it's not that I don't think it can't be justified, I just recognize it as being a justification, which are innately biased for one side or position or another. Third, by arguing that he's defending his countrymen in a war, you're validating ZAFT's position of treating the ArchAngel like an enemy, which most people don't seem to accept as anything but villainy on ZAFT's part.

Kira was effectively given a breveted command. He was onboard the vessel of the Orb government-in-exile, he donned an Orb uniform, and he represented the interests of the titular leader of Orb. As such, he would have a duty to protect the citizens and soldiers of Orb. While the Orb government-in-exile wasn't necessarily at war with PLANT yet, the equation is very simple: Orb personnel were under threat, and so it was the responsibility to go and rescue them. Moreover, it's a decent ploy to earn their loyalty as well. Note that this equation of responsibility changed after the troops rejected Cagalli to support the usurpers.

Don't lump me in with what someone else might claim. I would certainly maintain that Orb and PLANT were at war, and that the military conflict between the two are mostly justifiable. I'd even separate Cagalli's (and the rest of Archangel's) position in the matter from that of Lacus. As far as Lacus was concerned, she had been at war with Durandal ever since the assassination attempt on her. If it were up to her, I doubt that they would have been at Berlin.