[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Dont say its pointless. After all, who is the Ange we meet in episode 3? She is nobody, not even the Ange from 1998. And she certainly isnt Ange from 1986. She is just a game-piece, but she still sufferend very much. Every story written for someone has meaning in itself, I think thats one of the most important messages of Umineko - the stories are worlds (ikuko), magic means creating worlds (ep 7 - beatos thoughts), and the piece-ange in the meta wants to be freed just the same as the real-life Ange thats about to jump from the building. You would also say the story in the meta is pointless, cause that is all "just" part of a book. Its has meaning.

PrimeBattler/Tohya didn’t want to save any fantasy Ange. He wanted to save PrimeAnge. If he saved a delusion, a fantasy character, well, it takes away the meaning of the story.
At this point we wouldn’t have needed Battler to create chick Beato in Ep 6, he could be content with fantasy Beato with whom he talks after chick Beato brough him the cookies.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Hehe, no, actually that is not the case. the deaths are declared in red - and they really ARE dead at that point in time. cause sayo killed the cousins immediately after they left the room and hid in the "Golden Land". there is even a WHOLE argument about how you have to look at the time the red truth "x is dead" is given - because it can ONLY be given, when someone really is dead. It CANT anticipate a death of a person. (Im citing by memory, but I sure think you remember that scene too) Erika in episode 5: You mean to say by that point in time they were still alive? That cant be. Lambda declared their death in red. You cant say exactly when the red about their death was uttered". Ronove: "No, we know exactly when the red about their death was stated - when the trial in the court started". They make the point!!! that the moment the red about a death is stated is important. And that only ONLY makes sense, if it actually DOES MATTER, meaning you CANT declare someone dead BEFORE he died. Virgilila declared them dead because they HAD died by that point in time - they were killed by Sayo shortly after they left the room, because Sayo didnt want them running around.

(Please dont think of the capitals as me screaming, I always use them for emphasizing and immitate the intonation)

I think you hadn’t understood what I said. I was referring to the fact that Erika was lead to believe the deaths took place when Battler screamed when instead it happened later on.

(Please, since you know that they can be misleading do not use capitals unless you’re screaming. You really don’t need to emphasize so many stuffs in this way unless you feel like screaming them.)

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Well somewhat yes, somewhat no. I agree with magic not referring only to the ability to decorate the truth. Like I said, I really think "real magic" refers to creating worlds, cause that is what the witch on the highest plane , the creator witch, is able to do.

Creating words is decorating the truth. Those words do not exist. Beato didn’t plan to have Battler becoming a writer and create words. She wanted him to understand her and to accept her.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Lol, why? Why would Bern refer to fantasy-Battler, when she never gave a d*** about him in the first place? her little feud is with meta-battler. and she says "all of you" no "futari" or anything if I remember correctly? but it could also be she just said "omaetachi" or something. Id have to take a look at the scene again. well, doesnt really matter anyways. actually, I didnt want to mention it, because that would further complicate things, but the beginning of ep 6 is kind of like a "preview" of what happens in ep 6, because the way things happen there are not occuring the same way they happen later on in episode 6. and I really just read "all of you" as Bern referring to us! the viewers, what she has done various times. It would be soooooo weird for now to refer to the pieces as well when talking to the meta-person, and how is she even supposed to reach them - pieces-battler (no matter if you say fantasy or mystery) would not be directly connected to the meta in the first place, according to your clear-cut-seperate-layers-theory. Im sorry, please dont take this the wrong way, I like your arguments and I think if I go on discussing stuff with you, Im able to learn much more about the story, but this argument about "fantasy-battler-piece" seems completely stupid and dragged in by the head and shoulders.
Even if you somehow create an explanation for some things, there is still a TON of other hints that say otherwise, no not even hints, they are clear statements- the ones I mentioned in my previous post, that you cant explain at all. Some of them you also didnt address. Like fantasy-piece-battler suddenly losing his memories, or the fact that in the fantasy layer, kanon doesnt have a real body anymore - nothing should hinder him from leaving the room...and all the statements about battlers soul being in the closed room and everything lambda says - you just completely ignore that and instead say something like "in a way he is completely focused on whats happening in the closed room". Why not just accept it the way it is stated OFTEN and CLEARLY and in the manga/VN: its his soul that is trapped in there? I dont understand why you'd want to interpret it against everything that is said (imagine a desperate intonation here please XD)

This is the quote as reported in the VN:

"Hey, ......are you listening…? All of you?"
She spoke to the groom in the plural.
......Of course, there was only one groom.

Bern in the past was also a piece who was left alone solving a logic error. I can see her having a lot of fun knowing she has trapped not only the gamemaster but also the Piece that represents the gamemaster and that the both of them will have to deal with the logic error.

Showing us a Battler that’s not PieceBattler in the closed room is just a fantasy scene like showing us Jessica killing Kyrie with her fists or Kanon pulling out a blade or Kinzo wandering around. There are tons of instances were the original pieces are ‘embellished’ if you prefer. For me it’s more simple to call that Jessica a FantasyJessica because she’s clearly not the real Jessica but just a character in a fantasy scene.
Fantasy scenes or magic scenes, whatever term you prefer, are depicted so they seem to smoothly work with the Meta but actually are all an embellishment and this happens way more often than it’s said that his soul is trapped there.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Yes yes yes! They are referring to their pieces and the game-master as being one and the same. they are doing this not just in ep 6, but all the time they are referring to the piece-body and the meta-body as connected. But YOU are in fact suddenly saying they dont, they refer to "fantasy-piece", mystery-piece and meta as sepate identies and bern saying something like "all of you". Do you have the japanese raw btw? if you cite the passage we can look together if the "you" was there or not, if you're interested. For my point it doesnt really matter though.
So Im forced to touch the topic of relation between game-master and pieces after all

I think you totally missed my point.
Umineko works this way:
A story is written. Then it’s embellished. Then Meta characters discuss over it and they the player is unaware of what had happened beyond what the gamemaster will tell him even if the story involved him as well. That is unless he was raised to the level of Meta after taking part to the story as a piece (Battler switches to being Meta in Ep 1 Teaparty therefore he has experienced Ep 1 directly without Beatrice’s narration and Erika switched it during Ep 5 and though we’re not make certain about at which point this happened exactly it’s post when she was introduced to the characters).

We know that MetaBattler when was a player was totally unaware of what the piece representing him on the gameboard was doing beyond what Beato was telling/showing him. He even thought PieceBattler could be the culprit for all the gameboards!
This tells us that meta characters and pieces aren’t one and the same even when PieceBattler was supposedly MetaBattler’s piece.
Now let’s move to EP 5. In Ep 5 MetaBattler isn’t involved in the game and yet we’re presented a scene in which he fight with Dlanor.
Can that be PieceBattler? PieceBattler is never depicted as Meta aware and Beato herself said that the Piece version of Battler shouldn’t be able to see her but this Battler does.
That one who fight with Dlanor is FantasyBattler (or MagicBattler). In short the whole scene is all an embellishment. No fight ever took place and Lambda wrote that nice fantasy scene so as to cover up the real way in which Battler jumped outside. She embellished Battler’s escape from Kinzo’s closed room.
And now you’ve FantasyBattler who’s not PieceBattler nor MetaBattler. He’s just an embellishment.
And so, for more dramatic value, in Ep 6 Kanon, after going through walls, is shown as rescuing the trapped FantasyBattler who looks like MetaBattler.
It’s a beautiful embellishment but it’s just that.

Umineko has fun referring to pieces, fantasies and meta characters as one and the same and it thematically work as they’re, in a way, 3 versions of the same person.
MetaBattler didn’t personally made the phonecall yet as he and PieceBattler share the same soul Erika accounts him as responsible for it. But if Battler was really the same person as PieceBattler he would know PieceBattler had killed no one.

Beatrice also had fun confusing Battler, moving his piece in such a way it seemed an extension of him, acting as if she could interact with the gameboard when it actually were all fantasy scenes.
MetaBattler was never killed by Beatrice in Ep 4 after she says “I’m going to kill you now”. It’s never said he died.

If you don’t see Metabeato body around in some episodes and she looks as if she’s on the gameboard it’s because she’s clearly building up the illusion she’s a witch who can really interact with the gameboard and do magic and all. We know the scenes with Beato on the gameboard are fantasy. When this intention is dropped you can see in Ep 5 that MetaBeato is in the Meta while FantasyBeato is showing up in all the fantasy scenes. She’s clearly not PieceSayo but just Natsuhi’s fantasy.

The court is definitely not held on Rokkenjima. It’s either fantasy or meta, more likely meta than fantasy but it can be a mix of both as fantasy works just fine in the meta and it’s presented as real (though Dlanor implied that also is just an embellishment and Virgilia never made her tea with magic).
FantasyMaria isn’t invited in the court because she had no relevance whatsoever with Ep 5. You might have noticed they didn’t invite Sakutarou either.

Really, even if I cut your reply so as to keep the message not overly long, I get your point. I simply do not agree with it. It’s pretty logic you don’t have a problem with your theory as… well, it’s your theory.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

No, she is told Kanon saved Battler with magic, when in fact, he simply set the chain from the inside. Oh what fantastic magic XD (Sorry, Im just being sarcastic). You just gotta accept that theres no clear-cut fantasy-, mystery- and meta-layer here, because the room meta-battler is in is the hell of a logic error. the boundaries dont hold for that room- on the game-board itself there can be no logic-error (time flows different) but kanon still has access to the logic-error-hell coming from the game-board. and later on in the duel the boundaries are practically shown as non-existant anyways, as Ive already pointed out. And every fantasy-piece of battler on the game-board that he controls with his mind would be no different from the soul of meta-battler being right there anyways. so he IS trying to get out of the room, no matter how you look at it.

Through all Umineko characters we’re made aware of the embellishments in details. We get a really long, detailed scene of Kanon’s beautiful rescue of Battler. That fantasy scene is the embellishment that’s a fundamental part of the story and that covers up how Shannon left the room she was in, dressed up as Kanon, took his identity, switched place with Battler and then dropped said identity.
Often in Umineko Beato has then summarized the magic scene so that the discussion could keep short.
I see no reason to make a long scene disappear from the story.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Lol, blowing away the game-board means destroying the world they are in, which would basically be the same as letting everyone die, himself included. Better said: they would all stop to exist. Sure, he can get out of his hell by just admitting he committed a logic-error. Meta-Battler is in the room because he refuses to accept the logic error AND because of the lock. you'd have to ignore basically everything that was stated about the locked room to think otherwise.

So, if you think it’ll be suicide why didn’t Lambda say this would kill him and everyone else but just told him he’ll lose the only precious thing he was left by Beato?

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Let me also ask you that: you know how beato is a "piece" in ep 6. the game-master beato died. So is there a mystery-piece beato? hard to believe right? since mystery-piece-beato does not exist - she would overlap with sayo on the mystery-layer. so what is that beato in the chapel? she's still the piece right? with her memories. Like the piece-beato at the end of ep 5. and look here - shes a piece that is outside of the fantasy layer and interacting with the meta btw (=> NO clear difference between meta and game-board). you know when kanon lets battler out of the room, he tells him to go back to beato and ange. where is he running off too? if I try to make a clear difference between the layers, then poor-fantasy-battler will find, that there is no one waiting for him XD cause piece-beato is currently busy saving meta-battler. unless you want to say Beatos fantasy-piece! (remember, there is no rela equivalent mystery-piece) has suddenly multiplied....hes running off to his own body, if you want to describe it like that.
The longer I think about it the more it appears to me that the problem you're having here is similar to someone asking while watching a musical "are they singing for real in the story of the movie?" XD (Not meant in an offensive way AT ALL), I just thought thats a good comparison

The term piece doesn’t refer to just the pieces on the gameboard.
Pieces is a general term to refer to someone/something who is/can be used or manipulated to further another person's purposes.
ChickBeato’s purpose was to serve Battler and in a way Battler, by placing her on the gameboard, gave her some sort of life. Remember that ChickBeato is the personification of the rules a bit like Dlanor id the personification of Knox. So placing Beato on the gameboard doesn’t mean placing a person on the gameboard but just using on that gameboard the rules.
MetaAnge is a piece in EP 4 but she’s not on the gameboard.
A fantasy piece is just a fantasy. It doesn’t exist. It’s an embellishment, a fantasy explanation. As soon as the fantasy scene ends, goodbye fantasy piece. It disappears and it can reappears later on for another fantasy scene.
FantasyBattler ran nowhere once left out of that room because that scene was purely fantasy and never happened as depicted. PieceBattler might have been told to ran away so that when Erika would be there she wouldn’t see him.
FantasyBattler is just an embellishment, he’s neither PieceBattler who has to act as a real person nor Meta Battler who’s busy being forced to marry Erika.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Dont think about the difference between fantasy and mystery and meta too much here. its the hell of a logic error anyways. We are NOT shown the scene as it is told from a fantasy perspective, because in the fantasy kanon rescues battler with magic and kanon can go through walls now on that layer, since he just lost his body. its really a mix between mystery and meta at that point when kanon rescues him, because they are in a complete different dimension there - like it is stated, in hell where time flows differently.

So what exactly is the scene we’re told in which we’re shown that Kanon goes through walls? It’s just a fantasy scene.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

You cant explain it because you're bound to have problems with your fantasy-piece-body, mystery-piece-body and meta-body clear-cut difference. Not just with Ange, you also get problems with all the games before, as I explained before.

No, I’ve not. I’ve just explained you how it works.
Please, don’t assume that I’m making baseless theories or that I didn’t run through all Umineko testing them.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Hehe, Im glad you're already partly agreeing with me Then let me convince you:
I explained that already didnt I? I also thought about that sentence. Of course he says "from when I was very young". Imagine he didnt say that. Imagine he talked about horrible memories of a family gathering where afterwards he was falling asleep and ending up in a room he didnt know. Just imagine that as a viewer that reads Ryukishis story. What would be the very first thing you'd think? I assume it would be: He is definitely talking about prime here. You'd immediately think that, wouldnt you? This sentence -from a story-telling perspective- is just there to make you think he is NOT talking about prime. Just a mean sentence to confuse the viewer. But you know why we can be pretty sure he IS talking about prime? Even though van dine doesnt completely apply, the one thing, that refers to there being no unnecessary clues, seems to hold true- even Will used that to defend against goats. And while there are a whole lot of misleading hints, those misleading hints at least led SOMEWHERE. For example - Battler saying he is the culprit in ep 5 -> he is protecting beato, rudolf saying he is probably killed this night-> killed by kyrie, battler is not asumus son -> he is kyries son. every misleading hint has a solution, just this one, this big fat elephant in the room is leading nowhere, cause there was NEVER EVER mentioned a family gathering that was horrible and where he was locked in a room afterwards. Never. And the way Asumu is depicted and how its stated that she gave him all the love she could, definitely shows Battler had a good childhood. let me repeat: there is NEVER, not once, even REMOTELY mentioned ANYTHING that relates to a family gathering when he was 12 years or younger where Battler had such a horrible memory. But that might not yet completely convince you, so let me go on:
Then what is "when he was very young" referring to? Really, you know how long he's been in the closed room already by that point? Kanon says its been years, and not only does the time in the locked room count. In the meta, time is passing as well. Beato talks about her 6 years as 1000 years, so the flow of time in the world of witches is really not defined that well. and from battlers point of view, certainly much time has passed already. And oh wonder! What was the episode again when they were talking about the flow of time being different in the world of witches? Exactly, it was episode 6! ryukishi is nice enough to give us all the clues we need in this episode. the whole episode 6 is basically saying us over and over again to think about the "flow of time". but if only you consider kanons "how many years have passed in this closed room" alone, this allows battler already to think of himself back then in prime as "very young". Its like 1000 year old beato would refer to herself as young when she was only 20 or something years old. In fact, I think Kanon mentioning the years that battler spend in the room, is supposed to be a giant clue for that. You just have to put 1+1 together here and it is quite obvious, here you have the hint to what happened in prime.

So we just have to cut that sentence because it doesn’t fit to your theory? There are instances where it’s mentioned family gathering weren’t always perfect. Battler was scared by Kinzo who showed him the stakes. Battler was scared by Rudolf and Eva who told him about the witch wandering on the island. It makes plenty of sense that one day he felt asleep while on the island, was left in a room to sleep, woke up alone and got really scared. We’re also told that Battler was prone to get scared as a child right in Ep 1 when he remembers how Rudolf told him that the monsters that were scaring him were just fantasy. We aren’t told everything that happened to all his 12 family gatherings after all.
He didn’t have to repeat in each and every game that hey, once he got scared because he woke up alone in a room.
I really don’t get why you’d jump into interpreting things like Rudolf fearing to be killed as meaning he was killed by Kyrie in Prime (he was much more likely killed by Eva).

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

And last but not least, I really can reconstruct the basic events of prime with just these informations. It explains a LOT of everything that happens in the games after that, a lot of Battlers behaviour, a lot of the metaphors, a lot of the red truths. And that is exactly what we should be able to do - solving the story with just the infos given. Without Battlers memores, we cant reconstruct what happend in prime, with them we can. And I think I can explain the ending of umineko now too.

No offense but I think you’re taking too much creative interpretation with Prime.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

Yes, we hear her say Kanon rescued Battler with magic. Nothing more. There is no interruption in the story where Beato could have told her anything more. That is what I mean when I say with your assumptions, you have to interpret this different, that different, add something here, add something there, think info is laking here, info is lacking there, while it is much easier this way: accepting it how it is presented in the VN/manga and just accept that its meta-battlers soul that was in the hell of the logic error and kanon is rescuing him from that hell. no extra interpretations needed, just going with whats described in the vn/manga.
that way, the reason Battler forgot everything while in the room can also be explained very well, something one cant do with your theory. But you just ignored this part of my answer (by the way, even though I have not completely given up on the interpretation that battler himself let the logic error occur, I have a new theory that fits perfectly and in which he does NOT cause it himself - that is one of the reasons after all why you dont want to admit that its meta-battler in the closed room)

You’ve just told me you’ve to interpret differently how Battler said he was scared as a child and made huge jumps between what was presented to us and what you thought happened in Prime but when I say I’m considering part of the plot a scene you’re saying I’m interpreting things differently and this is wrong?
I’m going by what is described in the manga. We’ve a lovely fantasy scene to use as reference. And plenty of instances in which fantasy scenes were just the depicted embellishment used for the story of whom characters were made aware.
Honestly I skipped that part of that answer because I didn’t agree with the basis for your interpretation so to me it was pointless to discuss it.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

So anyways, when reading episode 6 I always thought: wow, thats awefully convenient for Dlanor and Co. to only check the seals on ONE window and let the other one unsealed. I just accepted it that way. And of course, with this I didnt get Anges comment, when they were blocking the blue to get out of the other window, "Isnt this a logic error on their part?". Once again, Im sorry for repeating stuff you all might have figured out from the beginning.

So turns out Dlanor and Co. didnt check any seals on the windows AT ALL. Neither the one in the cousins room nor the one next room over. They only checked the ones in the hall and forgot the windows. So there was not REALLY a logic error, (there wasnt anyways because a trick was possible after all), but they made battler and the others think so. There is always the possibilty to let someone leave from one of the rooms. So if they said in red that both windows are sealed, then it would be them causing the logic error, because THEY would make the game unsolvable by using the red in THEIR turn. thats why they can only use the red maximally for one window - so that there are still pieces that can leave through the window of the next room over. they use their red without having checked the window.
when Dlanor "seals" this possibility as well by saying the blue cant be used for this other window, thats when Ange says "isnt that a logic error on their part?" but the window is still unsealed, they cant seal it completely after all, its just that you can not use any blue for now. they wouldnt create a logic error with this, because they dont completely seal the window, they just say we dont accept any more answers regarding this. And beato later on doesnt need the blue truth. in a way, she uses the other closed room after all.
Ok, thats all, Im sorry for being stupid XD, I know its really trivial, but I didnt get it until yesterday. Just writing it in case there is someone as slow as me...

I’m not sure if I’ve understood your question fully but we were shown in Ep 5 that the gamemaster can withhold some red truths (Cornelia was forbidden from using a red truth) and that Dlanor can seal some possibilities (Battler wasn’t allowed to use red to state that Kinzo was dead even though he was a wizard and territory lord).
Also, Dlanor and Co in truth do not exist. They’re just an insurance that some rules in the game will be respected. Cornelia and Geltrude are revealed to be nothing else but personifications of the seals. They have awareness of facts Erika wasn’t informed of and either has no obligation to inform her or can’t.
Cornelia said to Dlanor she was forbidden by Lambda to use that red truth but not to Erika. If she had told Erika maybe she would have been spared from punishment.
Dlanor, although used by Erika as her ally, is stated more than once as someone impartial.
She’s, after all, a personification of rules that can serve Erika but also can work against her.
In this case Dlanor most likely had instructions to not allow a certain interpretation so he sealed the possibility to use it. Since Beato told Erika that she could remove that seal (not the seal on the window, the seal that stopped people from using that interpretation), evidently Erika took advantage of her position of ‘stand in’ for Battler to act as gamemaster and stop a certain info from being used.
As Gaap said the windows were never checked but very likely the doors weren’t personally checked by Erika either. She just got Battler’s red that the seals were still in place. In order to check the windows she either has to climb on the walls again (though I’m not sure that from the outside she could make sure if the seals are still in place or the window is merely closed) or she has to break the seals on the doors to enter in and check if the seals on the windows are still on work.

Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

And because Im already using this post to write random stuff:
we know that natsuhi= pride, hideyoshi = gluttony, Rudolph = sloth, Kyrie=envy, Rosa=lust, but I dont know exactly if eva is supposed to be wrath or greed and the same for krauss. cause in ep 3, eva is pretty much greed, but she is also really aggressive sometimes, far more than krauss in my opinion. and krauss is somehow greedy because he wants to keep the family inheritence (at least for a while) to himself, wrath could only fit if we consider his past. Have you discussed this already and came up with an answer?

It was discussed long ago. The gist of it is that each character don’t just represent a single sin. Eva is definitely as prideful as Natsuhi if not more, very prone to fall into wrath, greedy for a position that’s not hers and envious of how Krauss got it easily.
Rudolf is definitely a victim of sloth but he’s also greedy for money and can’t keep his pants on.
Rosa… well, I guess she got lust because she’s desperate for a man but when Maria does something that upset her she’s just wrath.
Pride is something you can actually apply to most of the characters, starting with Battler and going with Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, George and, in a way, even Jessica.
Gluttony fits with Hideyoshi but we know Battler is a glutton too and it’s implied George is as well and the same applies to Maria.
Sloth works for Rudolf but also occasionally for Battler, Gohda, Kumasawa, and possibly Rosa. In a way for Kinzo too if we consider him prior to meeting Beatrice. In a way this works with Genji also as he’s more of a passive observer of Sayo’s drama but that’s up to interpretation.
Envy is Kyrie but also Eva, possibly Natsuhi (she’s not happy how she’s the only one not having the one wing on her clothes), George, in a minor way Jessica, vaguely Hideyoshi (he claims he’s jealous of Rudolf here and there but in a totally not unhealthy way so I don’t think it’s anything big), Kanon, Shannon before coming to an agreement with Beatrice, Rosa.
Lust is used for Rosa but could also be used for Rudolf and Kinzo and I guess Battler. She’s also used with Jessica and Eva.
Wrath works for Eva but also for Rosa. Natsuhi too can be worked up to wrath (though she requires more built up) and Battler as well is very prone to get angry but he cools down quickly. Kinzo is definitely prone to wrath and so is Jessica who’s slower to cool down than Battler. Krauss too has his wrath moments even if he manages to control them better.
Greed fits all the siblings and their husbands/wives, George, Kinzo, in a way Maria (she was greedy for her mother love but that’s pretty understandable), Shannon and Kanon, vaguely Battler (even if he represses it).
If we include Erika also we’ve her being represented by pride, wrath, lust, sloth (she didn’t check the corpses), envy.
A character can look more prone to fall into the same sin but that’s all. They aren’t personification of a sin, they’re real people who commit various sins. That’s why the stakes used on them occasionally differ.
... hopefully I hadn't forgotten anything that was said...
I hope this helps.