[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by otacu

Yes, Gundam isn't exactly a realistic anime to begin with. I mean ... since the times of Amuro piloting the very first gundam after reading a manual for a couple of minutes you know that you will have to accept some things as granted... and it's sci-fi after all. I won't question the realism of gundams or how the weapons work or even why did those CE characters survive many times in those absurd situation (the silliest ever was Kira surviving the explosion of the Freedom). I mean you can always come up with crazy explanation like: he ejected in time(?), ther was a protection(?and those huge explosion?), or something else...
Let's discuss about the very definition of Plot hole character or “out of convenience character”: Lacus Clyne. Not only during the series she does act in very convenient but “questionable” ways but her very existance is “out of convenience”. She is the unrealistic perfect and allmighty politician.

Credibility
In GS she was 16 years old. I mean 16 years old. Now try to imagine a 16 years old going to CNN

As you yourself said it, we can't just say "holy crap, Lacus is unrealistic, oh noes!" because hell, how are kids getting into gundams and becoming competent pilots in five minutes, let alone becoming GODS on the battlefield and downing in ONE MISSION what most aces today get over an entire CAREER (Shinn I believe had like 30 kills in ep 17 with all of those windams?) So as far as Lacus's unrealistic aspect goes, within the context of the CE world, when you compare her to other characters of relative achievement in their own field, it's a slight stretch, but nothing HOLY CRAP, PLOT HOLE!

[/quote]
...and speak to the world about serious matters as peace, war and international relations. Done? Now, stop laughing frantically and add the fact she is a popular pop-singer. Imagine Britney Spears going to CNN to speak. I'm not saying it's stupid because she says stupid things.... it's stupid because she is 16 years old. [/quote]

Perhaps 12 of 16 of those years were right by her father's side at the meetings or onscreen in the background, observing, listening, formulating her own opinions, the works. Perhaps she was homeschooled in the evening but followed her father around at his work to that extent that she is able to formulate her own people-person skills? It might not be much of an explanation, but I'd think it's better than "plot hole".

Would you follow the ideals and vote for a 16 years old? I mean: you can respect and be a fn of a great 16 years old sportman, super-bike driver, chess-champion, genious mathematician, singer, soldier but ... a 16 years older politician? No, of course: a 16 years old politician lacks credibility. It's not a matter of being a good or a bad politician: it's just impossible to have the credibility to begin with.

If her father Siegel Clyne would stand behind that, I absolutely would. And in this case, she was basically continuing her father's ideals. And compared to other politicians like warmongering insanity-gripped Patrick Zala or Gilbert Decept--I mean Durandall, she doesn't seem like that bad of an option. Especially in GSD when she has already proved her worth that she's not just blowing steam.

Experience
So Lacus is 16 years old but for some misterious reason she already knows how the world works and how to act as the perfect (not just an average or good... but the best!) politician. Now we all know that being a politician is not something that you learn from books or that you learn at school: what is needed is experience. There are no geniuses in politics as in other fields. You can be at age 16 a genious at chess, a top-class programmer, a top-class football player, and with some stretches even a top class fighter (in WWII a couple of years were more than enought to have veterans).... but not a perfect politician. In an era when war is helped by computers to look like a a videogame it's not SO strange to have pilot so young and so powerful (and it's still strange) but the case of Lacus is just impossible. Lacus was already perfect and experienced in GS. How is it even possible? She is 16 years old.... politicians need years and decades of experience to go to the top but she already had the skill from the start. It's magic not even sci-fi. This unearthly and unrealistic perfection had two results: fans who workship her for her perfection and at the same time the most static and flat character of all the “main cast” of GS.

Okay, stop the leaps. Who's to say she doesn't have experience? And if we look at Lacus's character, she's usually very very quiet, and doesn't cause a ruckus. She's there to calm people down, and puts the people first. By 16, also, I don't see her holding positions on the ZAFT council. All I see is that she is her father's loyal daughter that sings to try and calm the people down. She doesn't even try to do politics until Patrick Zala is hunting her and she's trying to just be HEARD, for better or for worse, than to just die and disappear.

Also, I recommend before you start preaching about perfection that you play Final Fantasy X and then Final Fantasy X 2 and compare Lacus and Yuna...they are almost identical in that the first go-around, amid chaos, pain and strife, they are the ones that selflessly bring about some notion of peace, whether it's by simultaneously stopping a nuclear fleet and a death ray that even Emperor Palpatine would be proud of, or by going against all odds and permanently destroying the biggest threat to the world's history. In GS, Lacus showed that she was there for the people when she stopped Zala and Azrael. So in GSD, she ALREADY has the people's trust and whatever she does in GSD, I find it more believable already since she has the people's trust, ditto with Yuna in X 2 being able to end a brewing war with a single song.

Resources
I mean: where does she get the funds to make the Clyne faction work? Huge amounts of money and other goods are necessary... the Clyne faction wasn't a high school club.... it was a faction with battleships and the most powerful ever gundams created. As strange it may sounds (and it wasn't explained in GS or GSD) it's still plausible that some rich people or corporation was giving her money.... something like a Zaft's Logos (he he he). But still it's just impossible to completely fool ZAFT in hiding something as huge as Eternal.... or SF and IJ. And even if you accept the highly improbable but still plausible bottomless funds that aided Lacus how was she even able to produce SF and IJ? SF and IJ are not some kind of zaku that you can assemble one way or another: they are the most powerful prototypes ever created that of course needed huge resources, time and top-class engineers, top class workers and top class industrial equipments. How was Lacus able to do this and not Zaft know this? Again mistery.

Have you ever heard of loyalists? Perhaps a split cabinet? You even said it yourself: Clyne FACTION. It's not just Lacus magically saying abra kadabra and having SF and IJ come into existence. Because of how many people loved her father, she inherited a LOT of those people's loyalties, if not all of them. And those people indeed WERE engineers, politicians, soldiers, spies, the works...so when you're talking about SF and IJ, I believe it was said that Destiny was already conceived at the end of the first war, just shelved thanks to treaties. Well guess what? Engineers loyal to the Clyne Faction saw those plans, and coupled with Kira's and Athrun's proven performances, when the shit hit the fan, those engineers were able to build SF and IJ when the moment called for it. As for the funding for the materials and whatnot, that's a very good question but I think there's an explanation for that as well...ever seen Swat Kats? The turbokat is built completely from scrap found in the junkyard. There is a LOT of junk floating in space, and I do mean a LOT. Take enough of that junk and refine it and wham, bam. Or if that doesn't suit you (I really don't think it will), then how about this? Look at the size of ZAFT's army...how many MSes they're developing...the variety, but more importantly, the sheer number. SF and IJ are a drop in a bucket compared to all of that. Okay, perhaps something larger, that would actually have to be government approved as to where the hell the tax dollars are going. Guess what? That's covered because as mentioned before, Clyne Faction people are at the highest ranks in the government. Wasn't Eileen Canaver even chairman at one point (end of GS)? So they take a bit of the defense funds and state that it's for top-secret prototype research, and voila, Freedom and Justice (and the DOMs). Either way, it's certainly FAR cheaper when you look at quantity than the entire ZAFT military, and especially considering that the technology available on SF and IJ was already present between Freedom Mk. I, Justice, Providence, and the upcoming Destiny Gundam, which would also cheapen that. Yes, if you base the fact that here is SF, a single MS that can make entire fleets look like a joke, then it should cost as much as an army, right? Wrong. It would cost significantly more than a single "grunt" MS, but you must remember, IT'S STILL ONE MS. In terms of cost, quantity>>>>>>>>quality. In terms of what we saw in the anime, quality>>>>>>>>>>>>>quantity.

Fortuneteller or Seer
I mean she always does the right thing when needed and without actual knowledge of the situation. In GS Kira was delivered to her by the priest? Why? She then entrusted Freedom (not some random Ginn) to Kira without knowing who he was and what was he going to do. In GSD she sent Dacosta to retrieve Destiny plans from Mendel colony... how did she know the plan was there? During the entire series she just gives orders that thanks to plot hole are always right in the end.

This whole thread is not a "hate" thread. It's just a thread to point out who Lacus was: a Plot Hole Character. And she is always right. She is the one who makes the whole plot of CE works one way or another. She is completely unrealistic and idealistic we just have to accept her as for what she is. After that we can like or dislike her.

That IS probably the closest thing you could see to a plot hole, with Kira being delivered. Read the Astray Manga. Lowe delivers Kira to Malchio. Malchio remembers Lacus mentioning what a great guy Kira was when she was on AA, Malchio calls up Lacus to tell her what he found, Lacus says to ship him up there. Yes, she entrusted to Kira the Freedom (I wonder if Siegel had anything to do with that, because in the retelling of GS in manga form, it's SIEGEL that decides to give Freedom to Kira), but that was because she knew he wasn't going to take it to fight for one political purpose or another. As for the Mendel Colony, if she knew it was there, why not have her know right where it was as well? That place is a haunted house full of oodles and goodies. Lacus decided to pay a visit to that place, since, it's, well, abandoned, and it was a nice big genetic research facility (and what was Durandall before chairman? Oh yeah, a GENETICIST!).

As for Lacus being completely unrealistic, she's not COMPLETELY unrealistic. She IS, however, idealized. We can find Lacus's qualities here and there...a beautiful girl here, a talented speaker there, a heartwarming songstress in another place...the qualities Lacus possesses exist in people today. They just don't exist in such a nice, happy blend, which is why Lacus is unique. Well, check that, one of a pair. FFX2 Yuna isn't a far cry from being Lacus Clyne's twin sister with a different hairdo.