[Clue]

Originally Posted by Kadi

Be careful, this post will be full of opinions, some of them disguising themselves as facts. Just saying.

I start with a hopefully calm discussion, trying to suggest and evaluate some criteria to judge and compare harems. I use Campione and HSDxD as test cases. Later I start ranting against HSDxD a bit. A bit much. It turns into the main topic, actually. I apologize for that. However, I still think that, while readable and maybe even enjoyable for a while or longer, HSDxD is inferior. Maybe I can even make you understand why I think so. (Hopefully I won't have to in the first place *cough*)

Spoiler for discussion/rant:

(1) In the end, harems are always shallow. A fair number of girls will have to fall for one guy in quick succession or be shallowly in love "by definition" from the get-go. That leaves little space for elaborate plots where they reasonably fall in love, which would be the ideal criterion of a "good" harem for me. In that regard HSDxD and Campione are the same. The respective protagonists save, help or impress their respective girls and the girls are so moved by that that they fall for their protagonist. Not much more, hopefully nothing less. Campione may be slightly more reasonable because Godou's been trained and Ise's... well, a pervert (both are good-hearted, that doesn't count), but in the end, they are similar. The only series I know that might be better is Seitokai no Ichizon, but that is about nothing but the interactions between the characters that lead to them falling for each other, I assume (I didn't read it and the anime is to short to judge). Anyway, that doesn't belong here.

(2) The next best criterion I can think of is how much you like certain characters. You notice the problem? People like different characters to different degrees. One may absolutely adore Erica, the next will only see a Mary Sue (overpowered perfect girl, can do anything, loved by everybody). Also, weighting will be different. I mean, which harem is better, one with an AWESOME character with a lot of trash around it or one with many likeable characters but nobody outstanding? We can substitute likeability for creativity or "quality" here. In this regard I dare say Campione wins, mainly because of Erica. She may be a sue, but I've never seen another character like her. On the other hand I can see HSDxD's harem as nothing but an amalgamation of cliches (Rias the big-*cough*-boobed, strange-haired, softhearted onee-sama, etc.).


(3 (to end)) A third possible way to judge a harem is foregoing the harem and comparing two different works on a whole. As I am writing this, I realize myself that probable scenarios like "I like Work A better as a whole, but the harem aspect is better in Work B" is ignored by this. Not to speak of personal tastes and preferences. Still if we decide to use this to judge, as flawed as it may be, I think Campione still comes out on top.

For one, I think its character design is superior (Erica <3). Also, the world is more interesting with its interpretations of the gods and everything. I know it's not 100% true to reality, but where HSDxD does whatever it wants with the little it takes, Campione takes a lot and stays more or less true or does some close, or at least reasonable, new interpretations. I don't know about Athena being a tripartite goddess, combined with Medusa and *forgot*, but the way it's developed, it doesn't sound too bad, does it?

For two, it's got an overarching plot, developing for a long time and not apparent right away. Believe it or not, it starts in V4 from what I know and hasn't ended yet, as of V11. From what I know, HSDxD is "Against Fallen Angel. Against Fenix. Against Fallen Angel "boss". Side Stories. Side stories. Against *Dick A*. Against *Dick B*. Side Stories. Ise dies. Ise comes back." and so on and on. (Mostly) unconnected plots, recurring characters. Entertaining? Maybe. Better than deep-running overarching plots? Hardly.

For three, Campione's world is consistent, from the beginning. Although I admit there's cheating, but I'll ignore that for now. Godou uses what he has since the beginning, or what we know he'll have. The goat he gets in V2? We knew the goat would give him some kind of new ability some time, it just happened in V2 and help him stay even for a while longer. The oracle-foreshadowing could've been done better though. The magic his heroines use is similar. There are no world-destroying super-powers they just decide not to use or even mention (half high-class-fallen angel with divine lightning (note: super-effective against 1/3 of the relevant world)? "so powerful it might drive her mad"-nekomata? I-win-cheat power-leaking sealed incubus(?)? HELLO?). And don't get me started on Ise or the random power-ups suddenly made possible for the plot's convenience. Power-doubling over time is fine. Introducing limits later is fine. Being able to share it is... well, w/e. Suddenly having a super-drive (armor) for a huge cost is... pushing it but w/e. And in V3 we suddenly learn there is a way to make the super-drive (armor) permanent/normal, apparently? Through some revelation or turning point? And with all that and the befriending of other insanely powered people going on, there are still enemies that mop the floor with the party until they randomly power up again?

To finish (3) (finally. YAY): If you like harems or Ise's honesty about his perversity, DxD may still be the better novel for you. It does certain things right, otherwise it wouldn't be so popular. But that does not mean it's better written. There's just so much more to Campione. Just like there's so much more to a regular movie over a porno. Except for the humping and stuff, I know.

-------------------------------------

If you read this far, thank you. If you reply with a post just as long, I can't promise I'll do the same. Agree, disagree or both, I hope you can take this as an impetus to think about your favorite series again. Actually, if the majority of the people get something positive, or productive, out of this, whatever it may be, that's good enough for me.

Now, I may or may not have had more related ideas that I wanted to share but... I forgot while ranting. DOH.


P.S.: I wanted to finish the ... text with the porno-comparison so I couldn't say it there but... we all need some porn from time to time, don't we?

Edit: 3 new posts? Even long ones? I shouldn't write so much...
Edit 2: Forgot Umi no Misaki for (1). Shame on me.

I agree with most of this.

Campione, so far, seems more realistic in terms of relationships and the plot ensues a more
logical path. Most of the events that happen follow a certain criterion making it more "grounded"
which, combined with the fantasy aspect of it, works wonders. While Hs DxD seems more like a comedic
fable made for adults, which is awesome and unique at the same time.

Personally i have more "fun" reading Hs DxD but Campione is more appealing and interesting.