[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It is completely out of character with Beatrice's motives if she's straight up fucking with Battler about one of the most core parts of herself while giving him no clues to the contrary,

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

In the red. Context, sir.

I think I'll argue Wanderer's point here. There was certainly tons of clues Beatrice left all over the place in EP1-2 for Battler. Tooya, more specifically. I listed them for everyone too.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Then why are you arguing against it?

I think the problem is Renall didn't understand what I was getting at when I said this:

Originally Posted by Kylon99

The problem is you're thinking of normal people and how normal people define death. You need to think from Beatrice's point of view instead and how she defines death, especially death for 'furniture.'

This can be misread as: "No, you're wrong! Some other death definition is the correct one!" But I was saying, "You need to think from some other point of view instead." Which doesn't necessarily invalidate the original death definition.

In other words, I want to change the context of the definition, for the purposes of seeing what other ideas we can come up with. This is not a joust to "see who is right, and by extension those who disagree must be wrong!"

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Hindsight makes everything solvable. I'll need better than sophistry.

Sorry, but it's not by hindsight that it's solvable. It's by reading EP1-2 straight that the answer becomes obvious. Granted this is hard because most of us believed in deception where there was none, but there were certainly a few that did succeed. It's not hard to see this.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And you're missing the point again.

I'm not sure what the point is other than, "Umineko sucks!" (opinion) because "Beatrice cheated!" (possible truth).

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well, excuse me, but it's not an indication of agreeing with someone when you argue against them and defend the thing they're criticizing without clarifying your own position until after the fact.

There are the general principles I agree with. Then there are definitely some things that really belong on the level of opinion and not theories or facts that I do and don't agree with. I'll use this paragraph, a somewhat random one I chose as example:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The personality death thing is the worst kind of plot twist because Ryukishi tried so much to protect it to the detriment of his novel; people guessed it early on so he had to keep doing bullshit stunts to maintain the mystery and preserve the sensationalism that if you go back and look closely at what he did, he ended up fucking up some of the mysteries with plot holes and technical contradictions that ruins Umineko as a finished product, practically assuring that over the test of time it will be forgotten as a mediocre piece of work.

1. Personality death is the worst kind of plot twist -- Agree and Disagree. I can think of other things that can be even worse, like missing twin or 'it was all a dream.' But Personality Death, without good medical science backing it up isn't too hot, I think, but I'm willing to let it pass.

2. doing bullshit stunts to maintain the mystery and preserve the sensationalism -- Agree and Disagree. Though I wouldn't say it was bullshit. I would say it was entertaining, both from a story-level and watching the fan reaction.

3. He ended up fucking up some of the mysteries with plot holes and technical contradictions -- Agree and disagree. I know there were some contradictions and I can believe some plot holes were created, but I don't know if some of the mysteries were, "fucked up."

4. ... that ruins Umineko as a finished product -- Disagree. I don't think Umineko has been ruined. In fact, it's still providing some entertainment value even if it is finished as I go over again. I can see where some people would be discouraged, however, but I don't think it's been 'ruined' which is an extreme state of utter collapse? Right?

5. practically assuring that over the test of time it will be forgotten -- Agree and Disagree. People are no longer interest in it, but I believe that's more because the series has ended, similar to Higurashi. But I'm not sure there could've been anything else to ensure it did do better though. I have a feeling you have some ideas, so let us hear them.

6. as a mediocre piece of work -- Agree and Disagree. I don't think Umineko is great literature, but I'd rate it above mediocre.


I agree with the general principle that if the red text is violated to solve the detective novel mysteries, then that is pretty cheap. And on your opinions of the piece, I agree to some and disagree to some.

When I argue for or against the opinions, don't take that as I'm arguing for or against your theories, which are independent. EDIT: (Although in this particular case, I was trying to bring up a new line of thought and got counter arguments of about how I was "flat out incorrect" about something; I have no idea what... )