[Keroko]

Still not dead yet!

Originally Posted by Erio

That's simple: because it would help me contradict you.



Seriously, though, first, I agree 100% with lazy animators. They are the cause of our endless argument here.

Then why not simply agree? Makes things a lot easier.

Originally Posted by Erio

Second, the reason why I used eye candy this time is because you said:

This, in my opinion, is extremely misleading. There are a bunch of stuff that you can take in consideration, such as energy compression. Just look at Dragon Ball Z, all beams are of random sizes, but later in the series, the same beam does 100000 more damage than the same one 10 years ago. Makes sense? Not at all.

This is just animation stuff.

DBZ doesn't make sense either. The earth seems to regenerate such damage at an amazing rate, and the population breeds like rabbits.

Originally Posted by Erio

That's not the point!!!!

The whole point is that a Nuclear Explosion is NOT THE SAME as a Magical Explosion, because of all the factors I described, and that the Aces have NEVER BEEN IN SUCH SITUATION.

If you are so anxious as to use realism, then they have been in the explosive decompresion situation. The blast clearly showed the air being pushed away. Eyecandy doesn't apply, because we are using realism here.

Without realism, in an anime, heat, radiation, toxic gasses, explosive decompresion... such things would not even get involved, they wouldn't matter, they wouldn't even apear! The only thing that would matter matter would be the big explosion.

Originally Posted by Erio

And no, the airport stuff DOES NOT COUNT. First, the explosion was not big at all, or the airport would have been completely wiped out... no piece of building standing. And second, the Aces were not there at the time of the explosion. When they got there, only small flames were around the place, and smoke was the only thing they had to take care off, and they did with their 360 shields. In other words, they were PREPARED to be in such situation, so they went into the airport with their 360 shields on.

Why does it not count? I'm not talking about the explosion in the airport, I'm talking about the fact that the barriers clearly had the abillity to filter smoke clogged air. Logically, it also has the abillity to block heat and radiation. Why? Canonical reason: It's a defensive spell, blocking the heat from -for example- a fire attack is a smart thing to do. Shields always block radiation.

Non canonical reason: It magic.

Originally Posted by Erio

First, the 360 barrier was only cast on Arisa and Suzuka. Second, the barrier was cast off the second the explosion stopped. So, no.

Air had returned by that time. And there is no way to prove the Barrier was dropped 'the second' after the explosion passed, as we didn't get to see that.

Originally Posted by Erio

Remember, Zafira stopped fighting to tell Arf "Hey, protect your allies." Yuuno noticed because he wasnt doing anything, and he saw the huge dark lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and went "Oh sh--!" And immediately started casting his defensive spell. If you notice, he has to concentrate quite a bit before pulling off his barrier.

Arf still has to gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot, and Yuuno was hardly 'concentrating quite a bit' in fact, he merely pressed his hands together, mutters the spell and that's it.

Originally Posted by Erio

Now, picture the same event, where the Wolkenritter are assholes and dont say anything about the incoming magical nuke, and the barrier was not present, so the Annihilation Lightning instantly hits the battlefield... Not even Arf or Yuuno could get barriers up in a split of a second to survive such thing. Our heroes would have been DEAD. (For more about Annihilation Lightning, check the last of my responses on this post)

Note that Yuuno was not informed in the slightest, and still managed to defend himself quite adequitly.

Originally Posted by Erio

And about the "shockwave needs time too" part, YES, that's why I say, you can get ready for the first blast, but then you would be engulfed in flames, etc etc... look below.

Which would not matter in anime anyway. The shockwave is all that matters.

Originally Posted by Erio

I'll copy paste my last argument again:

"Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible."

This still stands. There's NO WAY you can react that fast. If you contradict this, I'll just drop this discussion, as it really wont make any sense to me. Besides, almost all of our characters are trained to attack. You have to be a barrier master to be able to even withstand the first blast of a nuclear explosion.

OK, seriously, if you argue against all I've said here, and still think that such thing is possible, I just dont know what else to say. I have explained things as best as I can this time.

...I just dont know what else to say.

My fault, I should have been a bit more clear on this sbject. Let's start of with the 'split second' you are talking about. We already established that ground zero is a no-go, which means that our heroes have made some distance before the misile hit. That means that they have a gap of time before the misile hit, and another gap of time before the explosion hits them.

In other words: There is no split second.

If its a surprise attack, sure they'll get killed. But then again, you wouldn't need the power of a nuke if you catch them by surprise.

Originally Posted by Erio

Hey, I know that. But seriously, why do you have so much faith in a BJ? The BJ clearly does not cover your entire body, so you're still vulnerable! And against a huge explosion that hits every single part of your body, front and back, top and bottom... Sincerely, I just dont get it. And before you say anything about barriers and field defenses, this part of the discussion involves only the Barrier Jacket... Just think of a situation where you dont know what hit you and could not set up any type of barrier on time.

*sweatdrop* ... not including the fields and barriers? That's like saying "How fast can your car go if we take away the engine and wheels?"

The barrier and field the Barrier Jacket generates are the defenses of the barrier jacket. The jacket -as in the cloth of the jacket- itself is pure cosmetics, and offers no defense whatsoever. The field and barrier are as much part of the Barrier Jacket as engine and wheels to a car, you simply can't expect a car to work without them.

Once again: These Fields and Barriers are automatic defenses generated by the Barrier Jacket itself. They are not cast by the mage. Therefore, they are a lot weaker then defenses cast by the mage, but still offer plenty of protection without the mage having to activate them.

Originally Posted by Erio

OK, lets use "critical condition" a different way then... she was not in such state because her life was not in danger. However, she was still pretty weak. That's the effect of having your mana drained.

Sure, no arguments there, but it does mean that a Linker Core can be drained till the last drop, and simply make you extremely weak untill you recover.

Originally Posted by Erio

I wish it was that easy... however, even inside the time-space barrier, buildings ARE destroyable. The sole fact that the buildings are not destroyed or even scratched after Annihilation Lightning or Starlight Breaker proves that these two spells deal magical damage.

And here is where lazy animation strikes its blow.

However, even for this I can offer an explanation: every time a building inside a barrier was damaged, it was because of a material source (usually a mage ggetting tossed through it) this means that the barriers don't so much as interfere with damage being done to the suroundings, but more the damage of spells to the suroundings.

Originally Posted by Erio

And notice that Annihilation Lightning hit the CITY ITSELF. The Lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and broke it, and so the real-time, real-life city itself was hit. And yet not a single building got even scratched.

I disagree, it may have punched a hole in the barrier, but once it was inside it was subject to the barriers restrictions. Otherwise the Wolkies would have killed the entire part of the city it struck.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Because there was no physical impact on her? If the strength of a physical blast was enough to knock Teana out she should've been pushed back quite considerably, probably sent flying through the air, she didn't use any kind of shields to negate such effect and BJ alone surely can't do this.

*sigh* why do people keep forgetting that Barrier Jackets generate Fields and Barriers of their own? Besides, Tia did get knocked back. Not that far, but then again it wasn't a full power blast.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Also look at Diabolic Emission spell for example - there was no barrier around that city part in StrikerS I believe, yet no physical damage was dealt to the surroundings.

My personal explanation for DE is that it is an energy attack. If you run lightning through a building, you won't see much in terms of damage, right? But run that lightning through a person, and you're lucky he survives. It's comparable to Erio's Magical Damage, but it's still physical.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Yeah, energy compression Generally in anime the wider the beam the more powerful it is, while actually it'd be the opposite.

Anime doesn't follow laws of nature. Which is probably a good thing, can you imagine Starlight Breaker as a pin-prick beam?

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Well, Nanoha had no damage accepting S-rank HB, but it's not like she flicked it off with a finger either...and Heavy Barrel clearly's a far cry from powerful nukes. Even though it was protected with barriers, it didn't really damage the tower badly... In terms of physical damage, I'd think nukes rate higher than SSS.

I'm... not sure. We already saw Hayate casting mini-nukes multiple times in a row. Such a bombardement could devastate a city, and that spell was no higher then S rank.

A nuke would be higher then S, sure, but higher then SSS?

Not so sure...