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Old 2008-04-05, 15:24   Link #1037
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As I kept saying, unprovoked ideological attacks are quite acceptable in world politics. Everyone does it.
...pardon? Everyone? I know I never have, so your logical basis is already fallen through. And when did the US start bombing campaigns in the Soviet Union? There are two types of people in this world who use ideological terrorist attacks: those strong enough to fight off potential retaliations up to a point, and those who aren't.

The Soviet Union is an example of a nation that supported ideological movements in various parts of the world (IE the IRA). They could get away with it because they had nukes and a huge army, but you should still note that they never did a similar campaign against the US, because the US also not only had nukes but actually had the ability to deliver them (as opposed to the British arsenal, which was targeted almost exclusively at Moscow, or the French arsenal which had a severe lack of rance for land-based ICBMs, or the Russian arsenal which at various points was unlikely to even get off the launch pad in the numbers advertised).

Places like Afghanistan and Palestine are the other kind. And they get stomped, hard, when attacks go out. The attacks still go out, but you'll find that most leaders prefer not to put their countries into similar conditions as Palestine. If you assume that because the Union didn't outright declare its intentions to destroy CB when it knew that CB could grind it into the dust, it didn't care, there doesn't seem much else to say on the subject. It's pretty obvious that all three powers spent the 6+ monthes racing their tech and militaries to the point where they could beat CB.

I keep mentioning how President Brian never got offended by CB's actions, and describes them as doing Union's duties for them. There simply wasn't any evidence that there was any outrage or anger on the part of the Union government concerning CB, up to the point when the Thrones start to blow up military bases indiscriminately.
You don't have to get a Pearl Harbor complex to recognize and oppose something as a threat to national security. Within six months of CB's arrival, the Union DID declare that it would try and destroy CB... should CB attack it. They even had that nifty Overflags squadron assembled, you may recall. That the Union has a different political priority (it's own stability, which the HRL doesn't have a problem with, as opposed to world leadership, which is the HRL's goal) doesn't mean they didn't view CB in terms of national interests.
Union didn't try to steal the Gundams because CB was "wrong", Union never gave a damn if CB was wrong or not. Morality was only an issue to CB itself, all three world powers were only interested in politics and increasing military might.
I'm not even going to try and explain how CB's means and goals are just as much "politics" as the Powers. If you can't see that, congratulations. You have the world view of Saji Crossroads. I will say, however, that "politics" are just as much about "right and wrong" as anything else, and that CB's was dedicated to the end, not the means. Everyone in CB was shocked when Allelujah took the moral route and saved the elevator-part. Virtually all of CB's "moral" actions have been done to further their own goals, and that's the epitome of "politics."

There was a split down the middle in public opinion concerning CB's legitimacy. It simply wasn't as cut-and-dry as you claim it was.
When were there pro-CB marches? Where was the support for CB after the people realized that CB couldn't be bargained or negotiated with? CB figures have been commenting on how they're making the world hate them since the beginning of the series. By the end of the first season, it's been said that CB's first phase was to make people hate them enough to put aside their own differences and unify. By the end of season 1, the people who think CB should be used are already a marginalized minority.

Originally Posted by EXEs View Post
Jesus Raptor help us, it's this idiot again.
There was no call for that. Whether you agree with him or not, attack the arguments and not the man.

A peaceful world order? I think not. The war in Sri Lanka was there, even after 300 years. There are public bombings, shootings and kidnappings in the Middle East, just like there are now.
Let's look at the world of 00, and look at the world of the middle of the century. Do you see MAD, armies constantly prepped for invasion, or wide-spread proxy-wars across three continents? No? Neither do I. The lines of the globe are more or less settled, MS attacks largely come from terrorists, and all three main powers are already working together in colony construction. Are there problems and conflicts? Sure.

Did Celestial Being's Earth Federation actually solve any of them? No, Azadistan is still seen as a powder keg after CB's interventions, the insurgencies were outright said to be biding their time until CB's disappearance, and Sri Lanka's situation that put forth the conflict never changed. CB didn't "fixed" arguments not by resolving the differences and situations that started them, but by blowing up both sides.
Not so peaceful, if you ask me. And of course, if the world was so peaceful, then why the hell do Flags, Enacts, Tierens, etc exist? To fight, obviously.
How convenient that Celestial Being gave them an oponent. To think, all that time they were sitting around in their hangers, gathering dust!
Celestial Being wanted to create peace by eliminating war with armed interventions, and they only fight when there is a conflict or when they are being attacked
And yet, how many underlying conflicts has Celestial Being actually solved? They didn't change the situation that saw the HRL act in the Sri Lanka issue, Liu Mei outright admits that the issues in the ME haven't been resolved, by destroying the economic bases of regions that depend on drugs or diamonds CB has impoverished multitudes of areas (which in itself is a common starter of conflicts). In fact, in almost every conflict that has been solved, it's been revealed that Celestial Being was outright used by the other powers working for their own interests. Later episode tells us that the events of Taribia were scripted by the Union, the AEU was planing a win-win scenario from CB intervention against PMC trust from the start.
(The Thrones/Trinity siblings are an exception)
The Thrones are part of Celestial Being. Even if they weren't before, the Observers made them so. Infact, it was noted that it was the Thrones that succeded in accomplishing CB's First Phase, which was to unify the world.
Calling CB's members insane or nuts means you've either haven't watched the show, or you weren't paying attention. Nearly all of them are fairly normal with the wish to stop war and fighting. However, (some of) the other side wanted war. consider a child tricked by a phony-religious man into killing his parents and then growing up into a hardon for a war machine not nuts? Or Mr. Double-Personality-Who-Is-A-Homicidal-Maniac-Who-Loves-To-Kill, or "I don't know what gender I am" Humanity-crisis boy?

CB is full of nuts. They're more like misfits, really. The most normal of them are the bridge-crew, who get killed off.

Ali, for example, lives to fight, and he's a bit nuts, that's about it.
Congratulations. A mercenary un-afiliated with any of the three powers is a war-starter (and has been implied to have been under the indirect command of Alejandro Corner, who has been setting conflicts for his own gains). Now, when have Graham, Katagiri, Sergei, Soma, or Patrick, the main faces for the powers, gone and said they want more war?
The members of Celestial Being were willing to die for their cause, and it takes bravery and determination, not a messed up mind.
Ah, I see the problem here. You're an idealist.

No, it does not "take" bravery and determination to die for a cause. Beer or drugs is a ancient tradition for pushing people into the field of battle. An idealogue can be willing to die for a cause. Mental health is rarely a factor, because being insane and being dedicated aren't mutually exclusive, nor are bravery and willingness to die. More than one suicide bomber across history has been some child with little concept of death, or a soul with down syndrome or other mental incapacitation who got put into a suicide vest with no choice in the matter.

Religious? Not really. Setsuna believes there is no God, and the other members were not shown to be religious at all. And they came from the different factions (Allelujah came from the HRL, for example).
Setsuna has been shown to be the grips of theological doubt, with the potential to shift either way in the future (depending on how his relationship with Marina goes). Lockon comes from Ireland, which is one of the most Catholic nations on the planet. I don't get where Allelujah coming from the HRL has anything to do with it, because Asia has plenty of religions. Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and many, many more. Few places have more religions than Asia.

And their "weapons of mass destruction" were used to stop conflicts, not actively seeking out innocent targets and eliminating them.
Louise Halavey would like a word with you. And the citizens of Moralia would like to ask how a joint military-exercise counts as a conflict. Same with the family of soldiers stationed at bases CB attacked: who were those bases provoking?
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