[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

From now on I will clearly state, which part of the discussion has become "offtopic", because we either agree on it more or less, or it has nothing to do with the main points (Kinzo's death time and "Beatrice") that we disagree with. Beware the power of copy & paste!

Interesting, truly interesting! **I clapped my hands and created a Tea Party**

I think a splendid intellectual argument like this deserves some tea, no? **I poured in a cup for both of us and began to sip mine**

Originally Posted by Greyzone

I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.




I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.


I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.

Very well, we shall drop this part of the discussion.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Very well. Struggle as you wish!

Originally Posted by Greyzone

"sacrificing herself to protect her family (preventing Krauss's siblings from law suiting him) and the family's honor (prevent Krauss's inability of using money to become public knowledge)" would, as far as I see it, fit that red truth. Usually people would say that her actions are "noble". So I don't see a problem with that.

An interesting attack, in fact a large segment of your argument against my theory that Kinzo Died on October 4, 1986 at 0:0:00 depends on the theory that Natushi knew the truth about Krauss.

However, Knox's 8th! A case cannot be resolved without presentation of evidence. Was there ever any actual evidence that Natsuhi knew the TRUTH about Krauss? If there wasn't any evidence, this theory cannot be permitted.


In fact, the opposite: If this theory was known, then the 'red truth' that Natsuhi was "pure and faithful" could not possibly be a red truth. And/or, you could make the argument that it only referred to Natsuhi's sexual affairs. But it appears that Battler stated that in it's general, true meaning of not GUILTY

Originally Posted by Greyzone

It was clearly shown that Natsuhi loves her family and would do anything to protect them (Krauss and Jessica). In this case, the only way to save them is to lie, as "appeasing the siblings somehow" is impossible, as all of them are after money to save their own asses as well, which does not exist anymore because of Krauss's incompetence.

I can disprove this theory by presenting another solution to Krauss's problem! The siblings can pool together and use what resources they had. Instead of antagonizing each other all the time, Krauss himself admitted this in the 3rd game in his confession of his feelings to Natsuhi before being magically killed by Eva-Beatrice

I also feel as though we have to put reasonable LIMITATIONS on Krauss's incompetence. I mean, it's not like the island home has been foreclosed, the servants are still(assumingly) being paid pretty well and he's still clothed fairly well. It may very well be true that Krauss lost a lot of money. But all of his financial assets? Not likely.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Oh, look! Natsuhi is drinking tea together with the family alchemist Beatrice! Nope... "Right now Natsuhi is drinking tea alone in the garden". And even if you say "that scene was a complete narrative lie", if she had to lie in order to protect what was dear to her, she would do it. She was doing it all for her faithfulness and convinction. I would consider that "pure" as well.

I won't say you lied. To say you lie, would also weaken my argument using the narrative to strengthen my Kinzo's time of death theory However:

Knox's 9th! It's permitted to all observers(other than the detective) to have a non-subjective VIEWPOINT!

Natsuhi can earnestly believe she was having a conversation with Beatrice and still not be classified as 'insane'.

In fact, it's entirely possible that Natsuhi's "conversation" in all realism was her gathering her thoughts with the 'character' Beatrice as an antagonist to those thoughts! This is my most beautiful blue truth yet

*Bern's Ahaha wav, just because she's a bad ass like that*

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Let me propose the following theory: Krauss did indeed want to get rid of the corpse. As he was convinced that he was the new family head, he ordered Genji to do it, while being sure that he would follow his order. However the true family head, Yasu (also known as Beatrice), ordered him to preserve and hide Kinzo's corpse instead, to be able to use it for blackmailing Krauss and Natsuhi at a later point, or possibly as revenge against Natsuhi for throwing her down the cliff. This theory is only possible with BOTH Shkanontrice being the truth and Kinzo being dead, so it is impossible for you adapt it for own use.

Knox's 1st! It's forbidden for the culprit to be someone not shown in the story. Even if "BEATRICE" as the witch was shown to us, the characterization of Yasu didn't exist until the 7th game. In fact, much like Lion and Will she's a fictional character! Yet, she has her importance. Namely, giving us more information about what took place on Rokkenjima. But she's fictional

Furthermore, if we believe Yasu=Shannon/Kannon=Beatrice. At what point did either Shannon or Kanon rise up to be the head of the family?Shannon's relationship with George hasn't even come close to developing by this point, partly because she's still fixated on Ushiromiya Battler! (For that matter, even assuming she could use a family member, like say George's influence. That influence doesn't come remarkably close to have Krauss change his ideas

It's more reasonable for the mistress of the night to be someone in high enough status in the family to be called the second head. This could be the Kuwadorian Beatrice(but I already dismissed the intelligence of her character entirely) OR it could be Rosa, though the youngest of the siblings her connection with the Kuwadorian Beatrice puts her at a higher plane in Genji's eyes.

Originally Posted by Beatrice

That doesn't change the fact that his siblings would want to have part of the inheritance. So when they would come to the mansion and say "give us our share", what was he supposed to do?

My apologies, I already spoiled a portion of my argument above. **sips more tea** But I purpose something else to you: The siblings agreed to a lump-sum payment upfront. It's possible for Krauss to negotiate a reasonable monthly or even yearly payment plan. This would give Krauss some time to get things in order and to entirely divert suspicion from his embezzlement or Kinzo's death.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Has there been any indication that the siblings, aside from Krauss himself, had access to Kinzo's bank account? If not, then "Kinzo's wealth" would remain untouched and it is known, that Kinzo has always been successful with money (in emergencies he also had access to the gold). So it is out of the question that Kinzo would go bankrupt by himself

Can you claim Knox's 8th in terms of the narrative? You yourself said that the narrative should be permitted. If you declare Knox's 8th in terms of the narrative, I can also claim it to refute the notion of Natsuhi truly ever knowing of Kinzo's death, or Krauss for that matter.

Indeed, if we refute the narrative, we can go back to my argument that Kinzo died on October 4th, 1986 at 0:0:00. Or died in the First Twilight, with Rosa as the murderer(through subtle poisoning) and Genji/Nanjo as accomplices

And let me note before hand that in my example I used sugar, or anything natural that could have tipped his heart.(Though Nanjo advised Kinzo to stop drinking, he never did use his authority as his physician to truly stop him. A family member could claim neglect of responsibilities). In other words, I'm not using supposition, as in Knox's 4th or any other supernatural agency as in Knox's 2nd. It's a true natural death, which covers up a homicide.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

You just hurt yourself with that! This just makes my point stronger, that the only person who is known to be truly successful in terms of money in the Ushiromiya family, has died in 1984!

While it was never shown the other siblings personally accessed Kinzo's bank accounts or any of his wealth, it was shown that Kinzo openly gave them upstart capital to their businesses. And they mostly all flopped. Rosa's little dress store was on the verge of collapse, both due to a staggering market interest and her own neglect while she chased every possible boyfriend who possibly dumped her due to her Yandere-tendencies to latch onto them with her own irrational thoughts about Lady MARIA.

Rudolf's business was being sued by the American Government(AKA IRL like a Megaspace or something). Hideyoshi's came from naivety in allowing his company to go into the market without the slightest hint of protecting his company.

And so on it goes, of course naturally the wives such as Kyrie at best were probably upper class workers and not necessarily company leaders themselves. In fact, while the Kyrie Theory is dismissable Kyrie's actual feelings aren't.

It's entirely possible that she felt neglected, that she felt that pride and envy and lust in her heart.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Krauss said, that he has contacts to the black market, that could convert the gold into money over time!
But wait... why am I arguing against that?
I shouldn't have entered this part of the discussion, as it does not strenghten the point of any of us.

Acknowledged, but the fact remains solid that Unless otherwise shown, Krauss never had knowledge of Kuwadorian. If he did have knowledge of it, he could've very easily paid off his siblings, hid the embezzlement and the whole Umineko story is basically wiped out by that point

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Also I don't see the relevance of that.

True, that's why I never tried to solve it with that theory. It's a plausible theory with the Truth of Humans.

Doesn't necessarily mean it happened. I can refer to Battler's numerous false truths in the 1st-4th games.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Knox's 2nd. It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique!

No supernatural agencies were used. It was reading into the magical interpretation and bringing into the real world with real world probabilities. Is this not what Battler and Erika attempt to do as the Detectives of the Umineko story?

Originally Posted by Greyzone

All of that is pure speculation and doesn't have the power of red truth at all! The "miracle" could also be just referring to the so-called "resurrection of Beatrice".

Duly noted, but you can't deny it can also be referred in reality to initial successes, followed by a dull in said successes later.

I can make that argument by stating that Ushriomiya Kinzo was not the Ushriomiya's first choice to be successor! Only after the Great Kanto Earthquake did he become the successor(IE: One of the few survivors left)

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Dlanor said that pieces can not be out of character!

And there's nothing out of character for Kinzo to favor one of the cousins(IE: Ange in the 8th game), more than the adult siblings.


This is proven in the 4th game. In fact, since we're here I'll reveal what I think about Rokkenjima Prime.

Rokkenjima Prime, as we acknowledge might possibly not be one of the games. However, that leaves it to be: Pieces of all the games, here and there. The 4th game for example, I argue that the actual events happened the other way around.

Before teenage Ange fell off the tower and committed suicide, she went to Rokkenjima to find out the truth. We can omit the obvious tribute to Hollywood and the whole chase scene as utterly unrealistic. OR, what occurred was that after finding out the truth, Kasumi's group was following near by and rather than the equally dubious summoning of the seven stakes of purgatory, what really happened was that Ange committed her suicide on Rokkenjima to symbolically be with her Onii-Chan and everyone else

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Therefore neither the description in the initial Episodes, nor the description in Episode 8 can be considered "out of character". Since both are "in character", the description of neither is absolute and must be somewhere between strict and kind. Therefore him "hating" his children is not an established fact!

Let it be spoken: It hasn't been subjectively been proven that Ushiromiya Kinzo felt anything for the Adult Siblings. In fact, he goes out of his way to ridicule even Maria.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

So you finally admit defeat at least regarding Krauss? A wise decision! Now just Natsuhi, Kinzo and Rosa are left! You sacrificed Krauss to strenghten Natsuhi's defense, but don't worry, I will crush that as well!

I admitted that Krauss was deceptive at times, yes to strengthen Natsuhi's defense but I also didn't resign over Krauss not knowing of Kinzo's death.

I suppose I want to have my cake and eat it too, fitting for Lambda's student no ^.^?

Originally Posted by Greyzone

But his buisness connections are what almost led him to being bankrupt to begin with! He said himself, that he used the ideas that his buisness partners gave him, but none of those worked out! Just like the idea to "turn Rokkenjima into a holiday resort" didn't work out!

I'll concede to this. If the ideas from his partners failed and he lost money hand on foot, there exists the plausibility for Krauss to embezzle Kinzo.


However, the siblings also admitted that the reason his ideas flopped was the timing, and Krauss's optimism. It's entirely possible that Krauss is anticipating a rebound, and any money he lost(or embezzled) would eventually be returned to him.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Krauss embezzlement already happened before Kinzo's death in 1984! He was sure he could get all his money back by "borrowing" some money from from his father, but due to his own incompetence, he only had losses as well. After Kinzo's death in 1984, Natsuhi, who was hiding behind her husband all the time, started to involve herself into that matter as well and Krauss started to be more careful with his money, but he was not able to gain back what was lost until the conference in 1986.

In the first game, we saw that Krauss openly objected to Natsuhi's involvement. The excuse given was that she'd worsen her headache, but he made it very clear that he believed in Kinzo's male supremacism during that confrontation with the Gold. There's no way he would've allowed Natsuhi into his personal life or financial situations.

On the flipside, that interpretation allows you to claim that because Natsuhi wasn't involved with his financial life, it was possible to deceive Natsuhi into believing that the financial side of things was taken care of.

But I'll cut up that objection before you try: It's clear Natsuhi was vaguely aware of Krauss's money problems, maybe not so much the embezzlement but she knew things weren't rosy. She'd be the first to suspect embezzlement.

At least as it pertains to Kinzo and the Ushiromiya's honor, Natsuhi is pure and faithful.


Even if it's her husband, if she found out Krauss embezzled "Father"(Kinzo), she'd go on an outrage. She'd inform the other Ushiromiya family members. In a way, this would allow her to gain more leverage and approval from the other Ushiromiya's, indeed to even be acknowledged as a true Ushiromiya.

Natsuhi's pure and fateful, but she's no martyr. If she knows the gig's up, the very first thing she'll do is better position herself to succeed in a post-Krauss world and secure Jessica's future.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Again, your assumption, that Kinzo lost all of his money by himself like his children, is very unlikely, escpacially considering that he was still in possession of the gold. In fact I still didn't see any clue regarding Kinzo going bunkrupt, aside from "that miracle" which you can interpret in many different ways aside from yours. And what about the 1 billion credit card? Will you dismiss it as a "narrative lie" as well?

No, I won't dismiss the card as a lie. It factually and truly happened.(It was Rosa's way of bribing Nanjo and may very well have been, as speculated Rosa's way of thanking Kuwasawa for helping to raise her during the aftermath of Kuwadorian Beatrice.)
]

This following theory can't be proven by the games, but it's plausible that Rosa, like Krauss also had access to the black market. After accessing the Gold, she had a portion of it converted into monetary funds to be delivered to the siblings of Nanjo/Kuwasawa.

Also, you misunderstand my argument. It's not that Kinzo himself went "broke"(in the traditional sense that there's no money, we know the gold existed.).

There was a family fund of money, open access. The family members accessed this fund and all of them squandered it. This means the only monetary wealth left is the gold. But Krauss is never aware of it, neither are the other family members. The only Sibling aware of the gold is Rosa.

Presentation of Evidence: Rosa is the least bit engaged among the siblings in the adult conversation. After all, why would she be? She's the freaking billionaire criminal mastermind in the series.

It's partially due to this squandering of family funds that has Kinzo upset. But the reason he's also upset that they want his money after he's dead is that he knows they'll squander it too!

To Ushiromiya Kinzo, there's no true successor not even Battler(who doesn't return to the island until 1986 and if you believe Kinzo died in 1984, the two couldn't have possibly met) and even in my theory that Kinzo died at least during 0:00:00 of October 4th, 1986 or during the First Twilight(in which he's never confirmed to have ever come out of his room) he couldn't have possibly met Battler or in any way logically changed his mind about Battler.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Again, Kinzo is still in possession of the gold and there is still the "1 billion credit card".

None of which accessible by the Ushiromiya household.(The Caveat being: Unless they solve the epitath)

The only one truly shown to solve the epitath is Ushiromiya Eva.But if we assume that Yasu=Rosa then we also know that Rosa solved the epitath and knows where the gold is.

But neither Krauss nor Natsuhi knows. In fact, as far as Krauss knows he's fucked unless he finds the gold

So it's absolutely confirmed that the only ones who had access to anything beyond any public funds made by Kinzo is Eva, Rosa, Nanjo and Kuwasawa's descendants via the credit card!

Originally Posted by Greyzone

FIXED! And I have to disagree. According to the Ikuko=Yasu theory, she can (almost, more or less) live happily ever after with Tohya.

Except, I just dealt Yasu=Shakanontrice a hard ass blow. There's no way either of them as individuals or as a unified person could have ever had access to the Gold, to the card or to any of it.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

No, I've got a valid reason why Natsuhi must have lied at least once, but I will write that at the end of this post...

Duly noted and will be addressed there.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games! The starting time itself was never told in red. However it was said multiple times that the game spans 2 days: October 4th and October 5th. Since it was never said that one day is "longer" than another and no one has narrowed down the time of beginning more than by the date, which is October 4th, I can only reach the conclusion that the game lenght is the whole two days, or in other words: 48 hours from 4th of October at 0:00 until 5th of October at 24:00! At 4th of October at 0:00 Ushiromiya Kinzo was definitly dead and his moment of death must have been before that. But I like your argument that his "actual death date" is outside the catbox. So to respect that, all I say is this: It is impossible for Kinzo to be alive during the game and also impossible to actively influence the game in any way!

I concur. There's absolutely no way for Ushiromiya Kinzo to actively manipulate the game board.

Even if we accept that Kinzo died before October 4, 1986 at 0:00:00 I believe the 1984 date is utterly implausible. I cannot, I will not wrap my head around the "logic" of an invisible character named Yasu telling Genji to preserve the corpse for 2 years, just to play out the Epitath. I'll go so far as to say he died on October 3rd, 1986 at 23:59:59. I will NOT use that 1984 date. Without Love, the truth can't be seen. Natsuhi wanted to bury Kinzo's body with the respect and dignity the Head deserves. However, the reports of the Typhoons and the sudden passing of Kinzo's death made it unrealistic to do so.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

I actually don't even need Krauss "embezzlement" anymore, because you just admitted that he is deceitful and admitted defeat regarding him! You also didn't deny Kinzo's access to the gold and the 1 billion credit card yet, both that prove that Kinzo simply could not have been in a dire situation!

Ushiromiya Kinzo wasn't in a dire situation, the family was. Or even if Kinzo's weath was drained personally, Kinzo didn't care. He was going to die anyway.(And according to his "promise" with Beatrice, all of his wealth would go with it.)

Irregardless of precisely when Ushiromiya Kinzo died, we can concur that his last, dying wish was to find a successor(as well as see his delusional Beatrice.) It pained him to dawn that not only wouldn't he see Beatrice, but that there's not a single sibling qualified to be the successor

If no one solved the epitath, Kinzo would've selected no one. Or he would've selected George in his will, which is why he was assassinated by Rosa and Genji.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games! I covered the "most likely starting point of the game" already too, which is the 4th of October at 0:00!

Now I'll use the power of Witches. Hempel's Raven.


In a world before 1986, Ushiromiya Kinzo died.

That world is not a part of the Umineko story and cannot be verified or proven beyond the paux-character Yasu

The statement that Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games, literally means he died at October 4th, 1986 at 0:00:00. Or even October 3rd, 1986 23:59:59.

Originally Posted by Grayzone

Krauss always needed "just a bit more time". Even if that sounds like an excuse to us, as long as they believe that they can get out of the crisis with that, they will go through with it. All of them are desperate, he and his siblings. They even evidently seriously tried to solve the epitaph, but that just didn't work out in most games.

That's true, but is that really all that Krauss could think of? He's obviously inept with money but how inept? He has some skill clearly, so I'd think rather than "buying himself time" with every little petty excuse, he thought his way through some of this.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Woa, hold on there! I agree that none of the games are actually Rokkenjima prime, but to say that EP1 is prime is a very daring claim! For an individual episode to be "prime" you must meet following 2 conditions:

1. At the end of the game, Battler must have enough time to escape the "Reaper" and must still be alive at that point!
You already don't fulfill this condition as he is still in the mansion at 5th of October at 23:59!

2. At the end of the game, Eva must have enough time to escape the "Reaper" and must still be alive at that point!
But Eva is probably already dead!

So even if you would try to make an Eva culprit theory there at this point, you still cannot explain how Battler escapes!

This may not be relevant to our discussion, but I just had to correct that.

In my opinion, the main reason episode 1(or a collection of episodes, with episode 1's ending) is prime is Lady Bernkastel's statement:

This game shall not have an happy ending

*Ahahaha.wav**

In other words Eva never escaped. The only thing that existed was Maria's diary and the bottles.

But why is Maria's diary and the bottles even necessary? Because no one escaped. No one COULD escape!

Any account of escaping, the account of Eva's "existence" in 1996 is pure and utterly fiction. Just the same as Eva wanting to mistreat ANGE is also nonsense.

After all, it's widely accepted that EVA-Beatrice's existence is mainly to defend the cousins. It's the same reason that if you believe in the fictionalized account, that Eva never tells Ange the truth about what happened in Rokkenjima

**Slashes the fiction with a sarcastic blue sword, Lambda-style and smirks** That fictionalized account is an allegory for the true sadness Eva feels about losing both her husband and her son(to his own madness in helping Rosa). In short, at that time before the bomb went off, Eva had no sympathies or even the slightest desire to remain alive! Ushiromiya Eva committed suicide on the night of 1986!

Or, even if Ushiromiya Eva did want to remain alive it's a freaking bomb. Lady Beatrice said in Red:

Right now, you're the only person on the island and yet you will be killed.

Not "maybe", "will"! There's no way without any boats or lifesavers that any of them could've survived in any way, shape or form.

Die the Death!
Sentence to Death!
The Great Equalizer for the Ushiromiya Family is death!

Umineko's 8th magic ending was a compromise to the inane desires of ANGE, as well as foolish readers(Lady Bern's words) to have some comfort in the idea of a "happy" ending.

Another final nail in the coffin is precisely why the bomb was even on the island in the first place. Who was the original Game Master? Lady Beatrice. And what is Lady Beatrice's specialty? Sealed rooms.

The Rokkenjima massacres is one big closed room murder that cannot be opened up. It can only be peered through with the lenses known as the diary and bottles.


Hell, it's even discovered the bottles and Maria's diary have the same writing. And if Rosa's Beatrice, then even ANGE's diary is little more than Rosa's confession to premeditated murder.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Embezzleing money is more than just "incompetence" or "inability to deal with money" though. Embezzlement is already going into criminal territory. Even more hiding Kinzo's death is. Natsuhi and Krauss gambled with a second crime to hide the first crime. And should any of his siblings find out about even just one of those "crimes".... then he should probably prey to whatever god(s) he believes in.

If Krauss truly did hide/or preserve Kinzo's corpse, how did he do it? If you try to claim that Genji acted on Krauss's behalf, you already played that card for Yasu(Rosa), who you made superior to Krauss. If he hid Kinzo's death, how'd he hide it from Natsuhi who was personally observing Kinzo's room?

Neither Krauss nor Natsuhi knew of Kinzo's death in the case of Rosatrice, or in the case of them knowing I claim that Kinzo died at October 4th, 1986 at 0:00:00 or October 3rd, 1986 at 23:59:59. We can actually use that October 3rd date to completely explain Krauss's actions within that day, as well as fulfill the notion of no participation in the game.

I'll claim with the truth of Humans that my theory of the public funds drying out, and the theory of Krauss's embezzlement are on the same standing. The reason being is that there's no red truth to indict Krauss on embezzlement.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

As long as no one has proof that he hid Kinzo's death or embezzled money, he had nothing to fear about.

I concur

Originally Posted by Greyzone

You should reread what you just wrote. I could claim victory regarding Kinzo now, because you actually admitted either way that Kinzo died by 1984, be it August (in that case he was missing from that year's family conference as well), October or November. But the "game" begins about 2 years later in 1986! Do you see your mistake now? I allow you to revise it though. Of course if you simply changed your mind, then it is OK too.

Or I completely misunderstood you, so assuming that: August is the 8th month of the year and November is the 11th month of the year. The prediction was "3 months". So using basic math: 8+3=11! And also imagine, it would just be one month! Would you say the time that Passes would be August to August? Of course not! You would say from August to September! The same applies to the 3 month period which means from August to November!

**Sips tea and plays Kuruki**

Indeed, that attack hadn't come out quite as I planned Chaos Sorcerer, so allow me to revise it in simplicity.

Yasu proclaimed that Kinzo died on November 4th, 1984. However, Dr. Nanjo predicted a 3 month time frame. I'm saying that November couldn't have possibly fit in that 3 month window(not without counting August as a month anyway).

In other words, the progression would have to be like this.

August> September >October> November
(zero)> (One)> (Two)> (Three)

But if we count August physically as a month, it's obviously four months.

If all of that's confusing(and it is, even to me). Let me just simplify it by saying we start counting from September if Yasu's theory holds true.

**huff puff**

I myself wish I didn't go there, what a long and tedious rebuttal point. But the point is to fictionalize Yasu's account in any form.

This is trickery on my part to claim that Kinzo died in October, and could only have died in October. Or at any segment in which the prediction was made 3 months before Kinzo's death.

In of itself, this doesn't mean I agree with the 1984 date. It just means I contest against Yasu's claim that he died in "November". That to me is the weak point I attacked. He didn't die in 1984 in any other worlds outside of Umineko and I sure as hell contest he didn't die in 1984 in the Umineko world. I will NEVER accept the notion that Krauss and/or Yasu hid his body for 2 years for the hell of it!

Originally Posted by Greyzone

*Cackle Cackle* Maybe you should go back to primary school! *ahaha_low_pitch.wav*

Chaos Sorcerer, in this wonderful Witches debate between us, I never once insulted you. If, however you want us to go into that realm of debate, I can gladly do so

Originally Posted by Grayzone

The storm only comes when the all people already arrived, in other words after the 4th of October at 0:00, which means after the game started. And as we know, Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the starting point of all games! so the Kinzo we saw there was most certainly not "Ushiromiya Kinzo". That scene could not happen like that!

**I used a blue shield and a red sword to deflect these truths**

It's certainly a scene within the Magical Realm and I'm not alleging that it happened in real life!

But what I am doing, is using it as an allegory for what could've possibly happened in the "real world" of the Umineko Series!

In accordance with the new theory I created in this post, I have two new Human theories about what took place just before Kinzo's death!

If Ushiromiya Kinzo died on October 3rd, 23:59:59 then it was of a natural heart failure of no complications! At the time, he called Genji to his guide and gave him the ring with final instructions!

Though there's no direct proof of this, it's a Devil's Proof And I can prove the validity of it being a Devil's Proof through the fact that Kinzo called Genji his "old friend"

For my Rosatrice theory, I have to make a slight adjustment because the times are important(and we've both concurred that Kinzo doesn't exist in the First Twilight). In this case, I won't use Shannon but Nanjo!

Nanjo gave Kinzo medication during the night of October 3rd, 1986. The medication in of itself is relatively harmless. However, combined with alcohol could possibly produce poisoning or a heart attack.

Because the medication was harmless, Dr. Nanjo didn't directly kill Kinzo and bypasses the red truth that "Nanjo is not a killer", Kinzo could've easily have drank water or anything reasonable with a prescription drug but chose not to. Kinzo himself declared that he didn't care for his life at his dying moments.

Knox's 4th cannot apply here because the type of drug referenced to is a legal drug from a doctor for medical conditions. And due to the Devil's Proof I have no reason or obligation to speculate exactly what kind of disease or disorder Kinzo was afflicted with at the end of his life. All I have to do is speculate(a rather modest speculation IMO) that a doctor would give a prescribed medication.

The door was sealed until one of Rosa or Genji discovered the body(Let's go with Rosa, because "none of the servants are culprits" and calling Genji an accomplice is a mere cheap cop out). Rosa discovered the body, took the ring off and from thereon became the next head.

As for the letter she gave Maria, she easily could've asked Kinzo for an envelope during a time he was alive. It might've been for example a back and forth between herself and Kuwasawa. Other than Maria, Rosa's known to be on relatively friendly terms with the rest of the cousins(and logically this includes Jessica, whose at the island)

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Insolence! How dare you ask me something that I answered in the post before already? You even wrote that you accepted my red truth regarding that!

**Sips more tea**. My apologies Chaos Sorcerer, but I don't recall your red truth. Nor do I recall accepting it. That's not sarcasm, I'm reading the previous posts and I cannot read it. If you'd copy and paste it, that would be excellent.

But I contend that at the very least, by proclaiming Yasu to be the new head of the house, Krauss in no way whatsoever was able to retrieve information about Kinzo's death, his whereabouts or anything at all. Genji himself serves "Beatrice" far above any of the other servants

Originally Posted by Greyzone

I was actually referring to the tea party of the 7th game! Regarding the 8th game I agree, as Aurora herself clearly stated that.

I'm referring to the 7th game too. I watched an epic video on Battler solving the Logic Error. He did so using a loop hole of Beatrice's closed room definition made in the first game.

Just as the closed room definition was universal, I declare that Aurora's statement was universal for games 5-8. Aurora, in no way whatsoever had any interest at any point writing the Umineko story. In effect, she was among the observers from the Senate.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

Nothing suggests that 2 years was actually enough time for him to get the money back, especially considering that he is deemed incompetent. That Eva is antagonistic toward her siblings is of course an established fact, as is the fact that Krauss and Natsuhi did expect the siblings to be more aware of Kinzo's absence in 1986's conference than they were in 1985's conference. But I don't know what Eva is supposed to have to do with our discussion.

Just as I attacked Yasu's proclamation of death to open a window to further truly define Kinzo's death, I'm attacking Eva's credibility to establish an alibi for Krauss.


And I have to add that while she's antagonistic towards all of the siblings, she is more antagonistic towards Krauss, far more in fact than the others. She wouldn't pass at any chance to dethrone Krauss, even if it means lying herself!

Originally Posted by Greyzone

All of this can be explained if the person responsible for that was actually Yasu!

Knox's 1st! It's illegal for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early parts of the story. We can excuse the fake death drug for game 5, but Yasu is introduced in game freaking 7! Yasu is either a fictional character altogether, or among Rosa's aliases.(or whoever 'Culprit Theory' you'd like to use).


You personally seem to be a believer in Shakanontrice. Even though None of the servants are culprits and none of them killers

But ignoring that hole Ryukishi put in his own theory, it begs the question: How could Kanon dress as Shannon? Apart from Shannon's curvy body, I sware she has a 30 D. Mere pillows can't do that(and they'd slouch down which would be very suspicious considering Shannon's young age. She's not a old woman.

If however you believe it to be Rosa, that blue statement is actually quite true. It's Rosa who burns the body, likely to make an autopsy difficult for whatever reason.(Since we've denied that Kinzo existed beyond October 4th 00:00:01. I can no longer claim Rosa planned his death via poisoning.)

Maybe it was to hide the pill that Kinzo took or the alcohol in his system, I guess if they couldn't distinguish how Kinzo died it would save Nanjo from medical malpractice charges.

Originally Posted by Greyzone

I acknowledge that you use "red" only for cosmetic purposes. I however will try to keep my usage of red tied to the rules.

I do wish to elaborate in blue that in no way, shape or form am I being deceptive. I use the argument of the "Witches" or in other words, an argument that while plausible, doesn't actually exist on the game board.

You can deny my red truths, and thereby of course they aren't "truths" in the actual sense, but neither are they lies. I'm not using the Purple Declaration after all, and I'm not a culprit . I just happen to be someone who got hooked to Umineko and well, Rping it like this is fun..




And now my first attack that is not of responsive nature, so beware:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

If you claim that Natsuhi is always truthful, then tell me, how is Natsuhi's claim that Kinzo was in his study possible? We don't have enough details for EP1, but for EP5 we know exactly that it isn't possible!

The windows were never opened after it started raining!

**smirk**. Here,I'll use the knowledge I learned from that Logic Error video .Never, at any point was it defined precisely when Natsuhi entered the room and when Kinzo left via the window.

The Windows could've been opened at any time before it rained on that day.

Or the day after

Or after that

Or on any day at all that doesn't meet October 3rd, 1986 October 4, 1986 or November of 1984!

None of that, whatsoever conflicts with any of Dlanor's red truths. Hell, it no longer becomes a sealed room whatsoever and he can leave by the door!

**Wahaha.wav**