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Originally Posted by Keroko
You know Tk, I just realized... if you really are right and Nanohaverse magic does not succumb to animation techniques, and the speed we see is indeed what we get, then that renders all your arguments about Mid's range defeating Belka's melee contradictionary.
After all, if the attacks don't even reach baseball speeds, then that makes them pretty much useless beyond anything but throwing distance.
Not to mention physics defying...
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Well it would if huge parts of Mid’s arsenal didn’t involve homing spells that are considerably faster then many of the beams we see. This is just another reason Beamspam is a bad tactic it’s slow and unwieldy and actually getting the target to sit still and let you blast him is obviously an issue. I also fail to see how an attack moving slow defys the laws of pshyics...
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Anyway, my standpoint is hardly what you described. My standpoint is that there is a severe difference in speed where Nanoha combat is concerned. What seems slow in one scene, suddenly seems fast in the next. Actions that look slow up close are blindingly fast from a distance. These fluctuations in speed, both in magical and physical combat, are presented on screen. Both count as 'evidence' as you put it. Yet which one is the true speed? I prefer to choose the fast speed for several reasons, one among them being that it increases the awesomness factor of Nanoha combat severalfold. The other being that the slow moving combat can be explained, while the fast moving can't (or at least, I've never heard of people doing a reverse-slow effect. Maybe for comedic purposes, but not for action). And lastly, there is even a reason for those interested in applying the Laws of Physics: It also explains just why seemingly slow moving attacks can do damage they should not be able to at their speeds.
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You should have said this to start with then instead of basiclly just saying “well I think the beam was moving faster just because” or implying it was an effects. And I’d actually agree with you speed DOSE seem to fluctuate
within certain limits while it’s sometimes a bit faster or slower there is overall a fairly consistent range that we see, and frankly that range isn’t really blindingly fast even at the high end. We also need to keep in mind that in some cases other factors maybe at work distance effects perceptions of speed that’s just unavoidable so we can’t be so quick as to claim a speed differential if there are perspective issues involved and it needs to be examined case by case; which would admittedly be a huge pain in the ass.
We also needs to consider what’s “fast” the fact is that given that we can see spells and track them in flight even over short distances there is a clear limit on how fast they can be moving unless we just totally ignore all visuals. As while the visuals may fluctuate a bit the spells are basiclly always visible and can be tracked in flight and so simply can’t be going THAT fast.
The last bit is just nonsensical after all if the visual effects for the speed of the spell are apparently wrong why would the effects of its damage level be “right”? Never mind it’s totally unneeded anyway speed clearly has nothing to do with the striking power of a magic spell (as you’d expect) so this is no argument for high speeds being required at all IMO.
Anyway I now feel I need to make clear I never meant to aruge that melee was impossible to use at all. I think that somewhere in the debate that fact got lost. Due to a number of factors in Nanoha melee is fairly viable (rather slow speed of spells being one of those factors), BUT despite that I still feel that even though Melee can work to some extent a ranged doctrine is a better approach for an army to take. As while it’s not overwhelmingly unbeatably superior it’s still superior in quite a number of situations and used competently as part of a combined arms team gains more advantage then melee dose.
Again though melee isn't impossible I some(often)times think people gloss over the problems and challenges with it far too easily. They often seem to simply assume they WILL get into range and give little thought as to how that will be done and often frankly make ranged users act stupid to accomplish it in a story setting. I just see way to many instances where ranged users don’t evade or maneuver or anything and basiclly just let the melee guy rush them down or he shrugs off ranged attacks, but of coruse the ranged guys can’t shrug off HIS attacks and so on. It just seems like every fight has to end in a melee battle for some reason and that annoys me to some extent.
Basiclly I’ve often felt the thread has a serious bent/hard on for melee and will gloss over its disadvantages while harping on any minor weakness to a ranged style. I mean just look at how everyone is damn near falling over themselves yelling about how bad Hayate need’s "melee skillz" and such. I still maintain she needs no such thing and that better barriers and improved speed would make her plenty viable and be much quicker to teach her.
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose
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Acutally it appears that the entire thing was a pointless tangent because Keroko didn’t explain quite what he meant well enough at first. (and it was late and maybe I didn’t read it as well as I should have) Which dosen't mean any of this is true just that it's not realvent at the moment.