[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

A sniper is a gun with long range, thus someone with a sniper should automatically win because he can shoot his targets from long range, yes? But what if his oponent uses cover, or they're fighting inside a building. Despite the fact that the sniper has a longer range, the characteristics of the battle change to make it less so.

Add to that that the most used way to train melee fighting (and thus Belkan) is one-on-one training, and you will see tat Belkan magic does hold an advantage. More training in one on one equals more experience in one on one.

It doesn't change the fact that it is a far cry from "never lose", which was Tk's point from the manga.

Maybe because that scene makes no sense at all from a realistic point of view? If a puff of wind from a bug flying by can tear a jacket, then flying, which produces much more wind pressure, or hell even moving around should tear the damn thing apart.

Probably a matter of it being a nice even pressure versus a differential pressure? Anyway, if things that don't "make sense" to you get deleted, can I delete such scenes as the slamming scenes on the grounds that it makes no sense at all from a realistic point of view? Or the high speed scenes?

I am dealing with it. Heck, I admited I was wrong that there were no guidance rounds the moment Barret F was mentioned. Still doesn't change the fact that all visuals and vocals point to Nanoha being the one controlling in that episode.

Well, I'll agree with you on this one.

Now this is interesting. We have physics defying rounds here. They are hit with a weapon with enough force to match a baseball ball being hit

Granting this is true, remember A = F / M. If M increases, A decreases while F stays the same.

(and and if we nitpick the physics, then concidering they can punch through metal they should be going a damn lot faster too).

Given an adequately thin and brittle piece of metal, even a low velocity ball can do the job. It is obvious that this is a sign of the Gadget Drone's cheap construction - don't laugh; look at Rein for a sense of perspective.

Which also shows them taking turns that are supposed to be impossible because of their momentum. Anyway, even with speeds like this (which, concidering their manouvering, aren't Flash Moves) they can still hit and block eachother, despite defying what a human body should physically be able to do.

Two SoD-compatible alternatives:
1) Flash Move can just last a little longer than we think it can.
2) There was indeed Time Manipulation. I don't have to remind you which one gets kept and which one gets shifted.

*snrk* Oh, I'm sorry, but you do realize that those awesome bullet time scenes in the Matrix were inspired by anime, right? Just saying bullet time doesn't exist in anime is laughable, concidering anime pretty much invented it. The number of anime that don't use bullet time is so much smaller then the anime that do, its not even worth counting.

I don't know about Tk, but I accept Bullet Time. I don't accept Bullet Time with voices.

Nanoha is filled with scenes that, should they have been live action, would have been bullet time. Hell, the very first episode of the very first season already has such a scene at 18:43,

It did. They were very careful to shut the characters up for it (in fact, it was just about silent, thus freeing the arc for very high time manipulation ratios), too. (Similarly, in the scenes I suspect are sped up, they don't talk too).

episode 2 at 3:03,

As the JS dive bombed? Same here. As Nanoha eeped, she covered herself at a speed which is within arc of normal human motion, thus showing that the voice-timelock is active and we've snapped to normal speed. It also shows that 7Arcs doesn't think you need a scene transition before you change speeds.

episode 3 at 6:54

Where the kid caught the ball? Looks like normal time to me.

and 16:05 episode 4...

That wasn't even an action scene. Fate is muttering all over the place. It is clearly normal time. Do you mean 17:05? Still in human range...

Forget it, I already listed several examples in the least combatative episodes of Nanoha. As soon as combat starts, the scenes pile up even more.

Well, now tell me. In how many of them were they stupid enough to mix time manipulation with voices.

Actually, I won't put it past them. But you shouldn't be so pleased about it, for reasons I'll explain below.

The problem is that I'm not just saying this 'because I don't like it.' Although it is true that I don't like it, I'm not without support, as the DVD booklet blatantly states that Divine Buster Extension has 'amazing speed' even though we see no such speed on screen.

1) There's actually at least one way to solve this, and one that's actually in your favor. Your insistence on not using it bothers me.
2) Using confrontational methods, the dictionary, by its admitted imperfect and "dialogue" nature, almost automatically loses.

Vice, episode 26, 5:55 mark and onwards. His beams hit the gadgets he was targetting seemingly instantly.

Well, and here we see the power of rifle scopes and long barrels

The greatest problem here is the lack of consistency. If the speeds in Nanoha were constant, you wouldn't hear me complaining about them. The problem is, speeds are not constant. In one scene everything and everyone is moving at a snails pace, in the other everything is high-speed combat and shots. So what do we do? Asume the slowest? Asume the fastest? I am of the opinion that we should assume the fastest. Even if we start to look at things realistically, it makes more sense, as projectiles with slow, dodgable speeds can't possibly do as much damage as we see on-screen.

See above. Consider mass. Consider fragility. Also consider that when they want 200m/s speeds, they show it. The one supersonic weapon they showed was justifiably supersonic onscreen. They know how to show fast and aren't afraid to show it (which is as it should be).

The problem is that from a analysis point of view, the time dimension of the slow scenes is much more fixed than those of the fast scenes (because Nanoverse characters jabber to each other so much). There will also be little point in having the devices talk if they really spend most of their time at the high speed - the time allowed to cast spells becomes so small.

Just try this on for plausibility.

Pho -- BAM -- ton -- BAM BAM BAM! Lan -- BAM -- BOOM KABOOM -- cer.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Anyway, my standpoint is hardly what you described. My standpoint is that there is a severe difference in speed where Nanoha combat is concerned. What seems slow in one scene, suddenly seems fast in the next. Actions that look slow up close are blindingly fast from a distance. These fluctuations in speed, both in magical and physical combat, are presented on screen. Both count as 'evidence' as you put it. Yet which one is the true speed?

OK, we'll go on the premise that the only thing left to do is throw out one or another.

I prefer to choose the fast speed for several reasons, one among them being that it increases the awesomness factor of Nanoha combat severalfold.

Obviously, 7Arcs does not agree with you. They obviously like slow combat

The other being that the slow moving combat can be explained, while the fast moving can't (or at least, I've never heard of people doing a reverse-slow effect. Maybe for comedic purposes, but not for action).

In other words, they do it.

Ahh, I finally see. You are arguing from a legalistic precedence point of view. And there I'll agree. There are definitely more slowdowns than speedups.

There are two problems with this.

1) There are far more slow scenes than high speed scenes, and the slow scenes are far more detailed. Thus, favoring the speedy scenes will be to favor the minority of evidence.
2) VTL. As long as a scene is NOT timelocked with detailed sounds (read: voices), it may be freely time compressed or dilated without affecting its canonicity. After all, scenes do not lose their canonicity when the zoom (magnification) changes, and what is "Bullet Time" but a magnification for easier viewing in the time dimension? It does affect our ability to extract data, but a scene does not become non-canon just because it cannot be satisfactorily ranged (say b/c of an unknown zoom factor), so the same applies in the time dimension.
3) A scene that overtly breaks VTL, on the other hand, cannot be a representation (even a Increased Speed one) of reality. It is, by logical definition, a fake. It might be more fun to watch (fantasy is often more interesting than reality), but it is still a fake. Take the Clannad scene. The audience view is amusing, but ultimately, it is but a fake (as further proven by the fact that under close observation, the audience view is actually different, not just a slowed down version even if you ignore the audio). The spectator view is canon. As you can see, from an analytical point of view, the scene with voices always wins due to this basic principle of plausibility.

And lastly, there is even a reason for those interested in applying the Laws of Physics: It also explains just why seemingly slow moving attacks can do damage they should not be able to at their speeds.

I don't like Tk's explanation of just abscribing this to magic (we are of similar ilk but among other differences he gives up one step before me). You are asking the wrong question. Consider: If such slow moving attacks can cause the damage they do, then that's canon and we have to deal with it. Physically plausible solutions that do not throw out evidence include:
1) The round is heavier than we thought it was.
2) The target is more fragile than we thought it was.

Originally Posted by Keroko

A's 05, 9:40 mark, Vita is definetely the one controling these.

Anyway, it just ticked me of that Tk turned the existence of one homing spell immediately into 'Mid has an entire arsenal of homing spells that are waaaay faster then other spells' I'm not denying that it opens roads, but that's exactly what he was talking me down for for doing, disagree and pointing out why my arguments are flawed, I'm perfectly cool with, but then to turn around and do the exact same thing ticks me off.

It is definitely homing though, Vita's ability to supplement it with her own guidance notwithstanding. At least RH thinks so (Ep 1, unless homing suddenly changed meaning in Mid), and it'll explain the clearly tailchase trajectory employed against Fate (Ep2), characteristic of primitive homing weapons that have not learnt the advantages of Proportional Navigation. The alternative is that the Vita-Graf Eisen Combat Complex put together don't have a clue about efficient trajectories.