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Old 2011-10-24, 14:20   Link #25316
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
That's what intentionally misleading means. When you say something that could be misinterpreted, and don't correct a person's mistaken assumption, you've misled them. If you know in advance their assumption will be wrong, and still mislead them, you've done so intentionally.

That's exactly what Beatrice did.
Yes, but deliberately misleading the detective is what a mystery is fundamentally about. The contract of a mystery novel is that we as readers know that we are going to be deceived somehow, but also that the author will include enough hints that we can uncover the deception. The only difference in this case is that we were mislead in a new domain that we weren't expecting, because detective novels don't normally play in the metafiction realm to the extent that subjective and objective truth become objects for discussion.

You can argue about whether or not you think it was a good trick or that the hints were too obtuse, but I think the existence of people who reasoned it out before EP5 is sufficient evidence that Beatrice, and by extension Ryuukishi, did in fact put the hints there. The mystery contract wasn't broken.

Getting back to what you said earlier:

Originally Posted by Renall
Once again, you are admitting that the only standard that matters is "what the GM wants." If that is the standard, and subjectivity rises to the level of objectivity (red), any GM who wields their subjectivity to intentionally mislead the player(s) (and failing to make it obvious that they are presenting their subjective interpretation is misleading, full stop) is dishonest.
Just because a tool could be used dishonestly doesn't mean that it was used that way. A standard mystery author could throw in an evil twin brother that nobody knows about and spring him on the reader at the end without any hints; that would be dishonest. But it's the lack of hints that makes it dishonest, not that the author didn't have the twin show up at the beginning and say "Hello, I'm the evil twin brother."
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-10-24 at 14:39.
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