[AuraTwilight]

Hey, I always love threads like these, and your thoughts seem pretty interesting so far. I'm going to respond to some of your ideas here. I'm not spoiling anything though.

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

1- Kinzo Is lying to all and actually intends to kill/destroy Beatrice. i reached this conclusion soon after finishing EP1,because:

-Why did he put a strong magic repellant on his door if he actually wants to meet her this badly?
-Why did he put the epitaph in the first place?if he loves her that much,and he hates his family that much,why would he intentionally put something that might lead to his beloved being put to sleep for all eternity(AKA Killed)and for one of his hated family to gain everything?wouln't he prefer his beloved to win?
-why does he scream loudly EVERY.SINGLE.TIME he talks about his love for her?
-Why Didnt he destroy the mirror that was limiting her power?

I Believe the following are the answers:

-Because if she entered his library,she would notice what many of his books are forestroying witches.
-Because,since he knows the answer,he cant solve the riddle himself,but he hopes that someone,anyone,will do it and defeat her.
-because he wants her to hear him from outside his study,as a part of tricking her.
-Because he wants her to be weak.
also remember the comments from genji and nanjo about how he can do genius things that seem dumb to the lesser,uninformed,minds.
the witch's comment about how he"wants to put her in a cage for all eternity"may or may not be a clue. i dont think it is,since i fully believe she was fooled by his act.

What if it's the other way around? What if Beatrice is trying to kill Kinzo (She's trying to claim his soul and possessions, after all), and everything you just mentioned is his defenses in an attempt to make sure he lives to the end of the roulette and be one of the five who goes to the Golden Land?

3:i have two theories about Rosa conceiving Maria. i think one is correct.
A:Rosa intentionally broke up with the maria's father and refused marriage in order for her name to not be removed from the family registry and thus still get her share of the inheritance
B:Rosa was Raped(Possibly in the forest by some witch other than Beatrice,possibly not)and that is how maria was conceived,and her subconscious hates maria because of that,while the other part loves her because she is her daughter anyway.

What if her lover abandoned her with child, and Rosa's angry about that?

6:The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that.

I admit, I've never heard this theory before. It's pretty hilarious and interesting. Make sure to read the TIPS after you finish EP2 for the magical explanation on why they're Furniture.

7:If you will ask weather i am" team deny magic or team its magic",both at the same time. After all beatrice done her magic is undoubtful,but it is also undoubtful that whomever found the key is helping her

Hm, what proof is there that Beatrice has done magic?

also,are the tea parties Canon?in the beginning it seemed to me like it was a"behind the scenes"thing where VAs talk about the game,but the end makes it seem canon. if it was canon then why didnt Kanon tell Battler about how he died fighting Beatrice,which means that she definitely exists?"

Yea, they're canon. Battler and Beatrice are in a higher layer of reality watching the timeloop happen.

As for, Kanon, well, "Hey FFTHEWINNER, I saw a unicorn today. What do you mean that's not proof? I'm telling you I saw one!"

"another theory:the witch in the portrait is somewhat different from the witch we met. the one in the portrait gives an air of elegance,of high class, while the one we met is the exact opposite. not sure weather she is a relative or simply changed in personality for some reason,but they arent the same."

This is a very interesting observation.

"reached the point where all the "adults"admit that beatrice is a witch.

-disappointed that kyrie did admit it too,as battler looked up to her and how she thinks a lot. i got a feeling somewhat like"if the teacher fell,what hope does the pupil have?". also,she and natsuhi are the only likeable"adults"in the entire cast lol. funny,considering that neither of them are actually ushiroymia. makes you think that blood has"unlikability"as one of its chromosomes lol >_>.

Pfft, yea. It's a shame that Kyrie doesn't get to be more of an intellectual badass in these early episodes, but I guess she'd be too powerful an ally to Battler. ^_^

-a BIG new theory that ties to two older ones: there was a line in ep1 that i didnt fully believe. now it has been repeated in ep2. the line is"Kinzo said he had a mistress named beatrice,who died long ago and is searching for ways to revive her". i am now 90% convinced that this is what happened:

A- Kinzo truly loved the original beatrice,the classy,dignified one drown in the picture

B- Something major happened that caused Beatrice to change into her current evil form. that is how "Kinzo's beatrice died"

C- Kinzo both hates the current beatrice and loves the old one. that explains all my original questions in post 1,as he wants the current beatrice to be weak,both to reduce her danger and to make his chances of success in changing her to the old her(AKA"Reviving"the old her) through his ritual higher."

Very interesting. Remember also, that Beatrice also wants to 'revive' in order to regain her full Witch powers, as if she's some sort of ghost. Perhaps being dead and limited in power has warped her? Like how if you're trapped in some place without any of the comforts you're used to, you start to resent and hate everything there?

Imagine you could go anywhere, and do anything, and you're stuck on a stupid little island where no one can see you or hear you, and you don't even get to see even 20 people. I'd go stir-crazy.

Reached after the first"Closed Chapel Discussion duel"ends with Beatrice giving up.

-funnily enough,When the discussion started i immediately thought"there was a duplicate key". when that was refuted i immediately thought"someone took the key then returned it and sealed it again". took battler too long to reach that conclusion lol.

-the"Red Rule"Doesnt make sense. first,Who guarantees that beatrice will uphold it?she could easily put any lie in red. i dont get why battler accepted this rule. also,how can battler see the red words in the first place??! we can because we are reading the story,but for them they are just talking normally,and sound doesnt have colors. my only thought is that beatrice's sound is somewhat different when she says the red stuff. any thoughts guys?(note,i was later convinced by the points another guy made,so no objections on this one now)

Because they're playing a game, and if Battler doubts it, they'll just play "Nuh uh," "Yea huh" over and over again. As for how Battler knows it's red...he can see the text. He's sort of outside the normal story, after all XD

But yes, you can take for granted that all Red Truth is actually true. Beatrice wants to win with style, so she won't cheat.

- 2 very interesting lines from Nanjo and Kinzo:

Nanjo said"It isnt my turn this night"before leaving the kids gathering. his turn for what?the only way for this line to make sense is for him to know about the murder roulette. which means that he either is the one who"Found the key"or that he somehow knows of the events of the previous death cycle. thus,he suddenly became a strong suspect.

Kinzo Said"I will be prepared for you(beatrice),unlike last time". this means that he either remembers his death in the previous cycle(btw,i actually suspect that he didnt die that time,but that is just a suspicion with no reasoning behind it other than his body not being identifiable by anything other than the six fingers),or that he and beatrice did this before(Most likely with the"Old Beatrice",and for different reasons/consequences than this time)."

Very interesting. I think you're the first person I've seen to have these thoughts about Nanjo by episode 2.

"reached after"Kanon"killed kumasawa and nanjo.

-WTF is up with the spider thing?is that some old japanese story that says"Demons fear spiders"or something?(later explained to me)

-Why did he only kill Nanjo and Kumasawa?logic would say to kill them all,yet he only did 3 strikes. this is VERY suspicious.

-so witches can somehow interact with both the dead and the living. interesting.i think this will become a major plot point later on.

-the glossary referred me to "Knox's Ten Commandments". however,i dont think they were that useful,for the very simple reason that there is no proof that this game adheres to them. for example,there is no"Dumb side kick"here,and battler had so many "groundless" intuitions that i find it hard to believe that all of them are false.also,beato's magic is undeniable,which completely contradicts rule 2. thus,i dont think umineko plays by Knox's rules."

For what it's worth, Beatrice admits she holds to the No Secret Passages rule, so she atleast respects some of Knox's Commandments.

As for why "Kanon" let some people survive...well, Beatrice is trying to get Battler to believe she exists, right? What better than stammering witnesses descrbing something impossible?

-Battler was eaten yet returned to normal in the tea party. this indicates one of two things.Either
A:She can remake the bodies from their remains like she claims(doubtful) or
B:She can Induce Hallucinations that she chooses upon her victims. this one is more likely,but if the 1st tea party was a hallucination that rosa was having then how come battler appeared and challenged beato?he isnt a magician,so my only explanation is that Beato was inflicting a "Shared Hallucination"upon both of them to make Battler suffer more.

Remember, after EP1, there's two Battlers now. The one on the island, and the one talking to Beatrice. It was the one on the island Beatrice fed to her goats.

-any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is,imo,kidding themselves. even from episode one that much was obvious. otherwise how would battler see the dead and talk to them?how would he see the witch and talk to her?how do you explain berncastel?going into episode two,the simple fact that battler is rewinding the events,being inside them again,breathing again,talking with beatrice about them,etc.denying that beatrice was directly/indirectly responsible for some/most/all of the killings isnt impossible,but denying her entire existence is.

Remember, the game isn't to worry about stuff like Bernkastel, or Battler's other world where he sees dead people, and Beatrice. This is a story device that's on the other side of the 4th Wall, kind of.

Our game is to worry if magic exists on Rokkenjima island, being used to kill people. Think of the Rokkenjima mysteries as the story, and Battler's and Beatrice's game world is like an internet discussion on this story they're reading.

-many theories claimed that clearly magical scenes only took place with people who die in the scene being the only ones who see them,thus they are a lie. that statement is false. the candy turned to butterflies then got fixed infront of rosa and rosa didnt die.genji stabbed the golden butterfly and didnt die.even battler saw butterflies in the ending(the claim that he was drunk doesnt work,as the game its self says that he wasnt).
furthermore,some say that the phrase"the witch answered ALL of battler's questions,and explained EVERYTHING to him"means that the"magic scenes"were her explanation,but that contradicts what the phrase its self said. Battler asked about much more than the "how". he asked many,many more questions that we werent shown the answer to. yet the witch answered EVERYTHING. so the magic scenes cant be her answer.
however,i am NOT saying that everything we see is 100% the truth. like battler,i am not proving that X is correct,but that Y isnt correct .

A few things, to jostle your thinking.

1) What if Rosa, or Genji, or whoever, is the person working with Beatrice?

2) The 'Game' ends at October 6th, Midnight. After that, Beatrice's magic consumes the island. Can Battler believe anything he sees after the 'Gameplay' is over for that round?

-a ton of people wondered and guessed about the contents of the beatrice letter that natsuhi read. that is weird,because it was clearly stated in-game. natsuhi says"i accept your offer to a duel"and "beatrice,who claims to succeed the head",so it is pretty obvious that the letter contained a challenge for a duel to determine who the next head is and for the honor of the Ushyromiya name.(on a side note,Natsuhi is genuinely the best human in the game,personality wise. her personality is admirable in everyway. it is quite sad how she is treated. she is quite beautiful too,and is clearly smart considering how she manages a ton of things instead of krauss(like we see in her conversations with him)so she is pretty much the total package for a wife lol).

Yea, Natsuhi is a great character. No spoilers, but you'll love EP5. It's basically Natsuhi's spotlight episode.

As for the letter, what people mean is, what else could it have said? For example, "Lol hey Natsuhi I know where the gold is, beat me in a duel and it's yours" or "Hey Natsuhi, here's some hurtful secrets you never told anyone. Come fight me."

-i think what is actually in the forest is a monument of some sort,possibly related to old beatrice. furthermore,i have had a hunch for a while,and could be wrong,but here we go:
in magic,there is always a rule that,the stronger you are,the more you lose your humanity. this is doubly so for "demon contract" magic. and a body isnt endless.it ages and dies,but beatrice is endless.
thus,could it be that,in order to attain,her"endless"status,Beatrice had to let go of her humanity and her body?AKA die?and could that"hidden place"be a graveyard to hold her body?
Furthermore,could The reason for the change from "old,good"to"current,bad" be that she went the"black magic"route?and kinzo is apologizing because he was part of the reason she went that route?
like i said,it is just a hunch,but it explains many things. we will see i guess.

It IS interesting that Witches aren't considered humans, huh? But if magic turns you itno an evil demon like that, what about the former, silver-haired Beatrice in the flashback, who was so kind?

honestly,i think this would have been better if they added dialog choices that lead you to different wrong ends. a big part of the joy of Visual Novels like Kanon and Clannad is the sheer amount of choices availible which really engrossed you. i know that this is a different genre(myster not romance)but i still think some options could have been added(maybe for wrong choices with hints?maybe for giving up?maybe for going on a murdering rampage from frustration lol). heck,i struggle to explain to my friends how this is a"game"even,as there is no interactivity whatsoever >->.

I like it the way it is, personally. Although EP8 has SOME choices, and there's fan-made episodes, one of which is a Choose your own adventure where you decide everything like in a text adventure game.

-"No more than 18 people on THIS rokkenjima"in red=what we already knew is confirmed. there are multiple rokkenjimas through the"different dimensions/worlds/timelineswhatever you call it"that was also in Higurashi. that also means three important things:
--there is more than 18 people in some of the other rokkenjimas/episodes
--the killer/s is/are different each episode
--what happened in each dimension might not have happened in the other ones,so the rosa in this rokkenjima might be the only rosa that encountered beato

Eh, I wouldn't conclude any of that. Beatrice likes to be vague in order to screw with Battler, and there could be other islands named Rokkenjima. :P

-those scenes are incredibly important i think. my theory for them:
Beato"Mixed poison with honey"(old saying,means she mixed the truth with the lies).i think the truth is as follows:
--Kinzo summons"old,good,beatrice"
--Both in them fall in love with each other
--old beatrice's death/suicide. this one i have many theories for. it may be that she suicided because of sadness over something kinzo did(which would explain why kinzo is regretful.i find this one to be the most probable). it may be that she wanted to be human again,but the only way to do that was to kill herself and be reborn. it could be anything really. i could think of many reasons. regardless,that they truly loved each other opens the door for many possibilites
--kinzo puts her soul in a human body and lets it grow,clearly surrounded by many servants(like when beatrice asked rosa if she is the new gardner).it is highlylikely that said servants were furniture summoned by kinzo for that sole purpose and are changed from time to time(most likely as kinzo's power got better and he was able to summon better servants)

What if their love was one-sided, and Kinzo tried to keep her trapped here with that mirror?

-is"meta battler"in complete control of his piece on the game board?i believe yes,based on many scenes. however,if that is the case then what happened to the normal battlers from the other worlds/dimensions?can two copies of the same person even exist in the same world?we still dont know the answer to that. not even a hint.

Basically, it's like an RPG. He's roleplaying as a version of himself that doesn't know what's happening, and he can put thoughts and ideas in his head, but he can't 'break character', and if he wants he can let his Piece work on auto-pilot.

-reason i am asking is that i have a theory that the place "human beato"was in was similar to the"tea party"place. a location outside the normal worlds. afterall,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and mansion right infront of you. also her description about the fence seemingly being endless. however,how do we know that the"realm"they exited to was the same"realm"rosa was from?and if it wasnt then what happened to that realm's rosa?i need the game to explain the rules of "realm travel"before i embrace this theory.

The place Battler and Beatrice play their game is certainly seems like it could be this higher dimension magical version of the Hidden Mansion (Kuwadorian), but I don't think its the same place. Remember terms like the 'endless' fence could very well just be descriptive text of Rosa's sense of wonder.

-i wanted to note that when i said"any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is kidding themselves.",i was talking about her being a supernatural being in general,not specifically a "witch". for all we know she could be "a god"(i heard in higurashi some of the"witches"were actually gods),"a devil","a shinigami",even"a voldemort"lol. even if she was any supernatural being with a different name than"witch"then that still fits my description.

For the sake of simplicity, Umineko treats "any human who's gained magical powers, even if they lost their humanity" as a 'Witch' for the sake of the arguments. No need to worry about word games like "Beatrice is a Demon, neener neener."

Still, remember that it's not a game if Battler can't win...

Sorry for the long response post, but I really loved reading your thoughts as you go along! Please keep going!