"If the magical narrative isn't true, Beatrice isn't required to be consistent about it. Perhaps it was always a self-imposed rule, or perhaps, like how her magic getting stronger allows her to summon more demon friends, she's able to trivialize things that used to be obstacles."
so she is basically"leveling up her stats" XD. a possibility i guess lol.
"Do remember that those ghosts appeared after Battler started imagining them to himself, worrying about them and the sorts of regrets they died with, having to hear Kanon be slandered and unable to speak for him.
Mayhaps Battler engaged in a slight bit of magic unknowingly."
thing is,neither piece battler nor meta battler saw the ghosts,otherwise they would have commented on them. if it was like you said then they would have seen them.
also,now that i think about it,that line has yet another contrandiction hidden inside it. if the place where shannon and genji's soul went is a "a place where the witch and her minions couldnt reach them,no matter how much they tried",then how could they be revived in the golden land?if beatrice cant reach their soul then she certainly cant revive them.
"Remember that the person who reaches the Golden Land receives Four Treasures, one of which is the revival of all the dead. In the EP1 ending scroll, the four children being invited seems to have granted them all a wish. Jessica wanted Kanon, George wanted Shannon, they were there. Maria wanted Rosa. Maybe she was going to be there but wasn't really worked into the scene since Rosa never really believes in Beatrice much.
Battler probably would have asked for everyone else, if he believed."
thing is,the epitaph also states this:
"The witch will praise the wise, and shall bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time."
those lines mean that all 4 treasures shall be bestewed upon the one person,but the ending scroll says that each got one wish,which doesnt fit what was said.
after thinking som emore,i believe that the epitaph could be used in two ways
--as a riddle to be solved,and if solved the one to solve it will recieve all that is described,including the witch being put to sleep forever(aka dying). if used this way everything about killing is metaphorical.
--or as a method to revive the witch,and what happens after that is up to the witch's whims. if used this way everything about killing is literal.
"Perhaps because the old Beatrice never played with human lives like a cruel god, Beatrice never considers her as having become a 'true' Endless Witch."
you know,i would have agreed with you,if not for a very annoying glitch :/. you see,i was playing this portion on my phone(using the great VNDS program
and for some reason,a glitch happened during battler's talk with"previous beatrice"that showed me a face that shouldnt appear at this point(as i checked the pc version and it doesnt).the face i saw was "old beatrice"with crazy,yandere eyes(you know the type). it was quite scary tbh lol. current beatrice's scary faces are full of mockery,but that face had insanity printed all over it. i did get quite annoyed when i learned it wasnt supposed to be there,as i have been spoiled by a f***ing glitch lol.
so yeah,for this reason i cant say that old beatrice was a great women any longer
"According to her, in that scene, she awakened only now because of the strengthening magical presence on the island. The Fantasy/Magic creatures have a sideways awareness of time with the loops, so it seems that the magic side on the island gets stronger in each Game. This eventually pushes Virgilia into awakening.
Atleast, assuming this is real. :P"
you know,it would be too easy to say"all magic murder scenes are imaginary and dont matter". but that is exactly why i believe that statement is false. because it would be too easy.
the scenes matter,but they arent 100% true either. that is why i always keep them in the back of my mind and try to find a happy medium. so far,my"Beatrice's Hypnotising Butterflies"explanation is the best one i have,but i always evolve my pokemon,so we will see what the next evolution has in store for us
"Ghosts not remembering how they died is a fairly common trope."
fair point.
"She didn't actually confirm it in red. By her own admission she can't use the Red Truth to confirm magic or there's no game. When she says 'Beatrice' does this or that in Red Truth, she's referring to whoever is using the name Beatrice, whether that's a witch, a human named Beatrice, or a human pretending to be Beatrice.
Battler's win condition seems to be to deny Beatrice's magic on the Gameboard entirley, as demonstrated when Beatrice challenges him on things that have nothing to do with murder.
You're also neglecting that Kinzo and Beatrice both describe their magic being stronger with greater risk. If Beatrice risks her life and existence, then when she wins no one will be able to deny her existence and magic. It's a gamble, and the most fun thing she ever found to do with her thousand years of life. :3"
what she confirmed in red is that her"piece on the gameboard"is indeed that,and not a fake. to quote my old post:
"-the beatrice in the game in episode 2 IS the same beatrice the witch,not a fake. it is her"existence inside the game"just like battler has his. this is confirmed in red text,as beato said in red"the key I gave to maria"
i dont remember beatrice challenging him on anything other than the locked rooms of murder. care to refresh my memory?
i dont see what that has to do with what i said. beatrice IS risking her life and existence already,as if the riddle is solved she will lose and die. her helping the killer doesnt negate that.
"No, my proposed cut-off point is the 10th Twilight, the midnight of the second day where the door to the Golden Land supposedly opens. At this point, the Game is concluded for the round and the pieces of the Gameboard are swept up. It is the only time magical imagery ever happens infront of Piece Battler's eyes, when that normally breaks the rules of the game."
but how can you specify when the 9th twilight ends and the 10th twilight begins?those"twilights"are clearly "stages"pretty much and do not represent any specific time limit.they are done when the stuff that is supposed to happen in them is done. considering that the 2nd part of the 9th twilight is"none shall be left alive",and when the clock is at 12 there are clearly living people still,i'd strongly argue that the 12th hour is not the beginning of the 10th twilight. infact,it has so far been more logical to assume it as the time the witch is revived,AKA the 9th twilight.
"We still can't discredit that a murderer forced them to say things at gun point or bribed them with gold or the promise of safety."
true. we cant discredit anything in a game like umineko. but that doesnt make the chance that a full 3rd of the people on the island are collaborating with the killer any higher. you'd think atleast some of them would rat him out when they begin to see their accomplices die and whatever he promised them not happening.
"I was born in Japan, you can take my word for it. XD"
strange then,because i PMed chronotrig,who is a part of the official translation team,with this question. here is his answer:
"As for your point on "this Rokkenjima", it absolutely can be used in the way you described, for the reasons you said. "kono" isn't a null word that's just used to tie a sentence together, and I don't think it was used unintentionally. Their point about translation to English being a sloppy business is true, and a big part of our re-translation was removing ambiguous things or lines that gave unintended impressions. But this specific line is straightforward, and our new translation has it exactly the same."
so he fully agrees with me about this line
"I will say though, since the loops start in 1986, that it doesn't make sense for things to be different decades before"
i dont get what you mean by this line tbh. care to clarify?
"EP2 Rosa was eaten by Goats. Her soul was revived in the higher realm so Beatrice could mess with her."
you misunderstood what i said. i was referring to an older theory i had:
"i have a theory that the place "human beato"was in was similar to the"tea party"place. a location outside the normal worlds. afterall,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and mansion right infront of you. also her description about the fence seemingly being endless. however,how do we know that the"realm"they exited to was the same"realm"rosa was from?and if it wasnt then what happened to that realm's rosa?i need the game to explain the rules of "realm travel"before i embrace this theory."
"Er, there's only one hidden mansion?
The buildings on Rokkenjima the story has mentioned is the mansion, the guesthouse, the toolshed, the church, and the Hidden Mansion."
not according to my theory here:
"-butler confirmed the existence of a hidden mansion named(forgot the name lol) in red,but said"this is the manson we are talking about"in black. he then said in red that beato was in a hidden mansion but didnt name it,even though it would have been easier for him to say"she was in(insert name here)"instead of"in a hidden mansion". this leads me to believe that,while she was in a hidden mansion on rokkenjima,she wasnt in"(insert name here)"hidden mansion."
"Well, it's Kinzo. He might have prepared the homunculus ahead of time... "
which would mean that he had known years prior that beatrice would suicide. that is impossible.
reached after "battler's tube discussion with virgilia"
-why would virgilia,a sorceress herself,help battler when his goal is to deny any and all magic?say two goblin clans are warring with each other,and a third party wants to kill every single goblin in existence,why would one of the clans help him when his victory means that they all lose?yes,she wants beatrice to lose,but virgilia herself loses too if battler wins.
-the point of this part was apparently to say that,whenever we see magic being done on the island within those two days,it is as if a narrator is telling the story from a magic point of view and we shouldnt take it literally.however,we should search for clues within the crime scenes and try to construct what happened from there.i accept that,but i still think the magic scenes hold valuable clues.