[Arabesque]

Before I get into the the discussion regarding the main cast, I'd like to address something about a certain member of the secondary one

Spoiler for answer:

Regarding the bold on Ledgem's post and RRR's question, do recall that back on episode 7 I believe, it was hinted at that Ayase's grandfather was ''preparing'' her to be his successor in the family underground business (which might have been just him wanting her to actually succeeded him eventually (though I doubt it was just that, considering that the show went there with her selling her body during the blockade), but I took it more as him wanting her to shall we say ''seal the deal'' or ''make the other side warm up'' to it. It does explain why she in the end killed him since it was clear that she was harboring very deep resentments about her fate that her grandfather put her in. It also ties in with the point Ledgem brought about how desperate the situation was and how the cast ended up doing the very things they tried their best to avoid in order to survive.

As for why she went back to Gai, well it goes back to episode 7 and how when she first meet Gai he understood her and what sort of person she was behind that armor she wears to protect herself, couple with him being incredibly charismatic, giving off a The Dashing White Prince vibe, and the whole sub-plot of kings and whatnot, it was no wonder she decided to follow him and become one of his ''subjects''.

Of course, much like everything about the cast, all of this looks pretty fantastic on paper. The actual execution of of it all was imo very lacking and left more to be desire honestly ...

As to when she when and how she went back ... Umm, magic!lol ?

(As a side note, I felt disgusted at the whole ordeal she was put through, and the show painting her in a less than savory light, especially when it was in the middle of making freaking Darly look less of a homicidal maniac for a stupid reason in comparison tp her more justifiable one (no Guilty Crown, just because he has a crush on someone doesn't make him an OK guy) ... personally I like Ayase a lot (she's my second favorite after Hare) so I do hope that she ends up not being shafted by the end (though that seems to be the likely out come)).

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Shu seems to get hated on a lot, but I like him a lot as a character. He's very human throughout the entire series, and seeing his growth and reactions was pretty inspirational. I get the impression that people stopped watching this series at two major segments: in the very beginning, when Shu seems to express a lot of back-and-forth thinking about joining the Undertakers, and shortly after the halfway point of the series,

Spoiler for Shu personality shift:

when Shu becomes "evil." While I could see why it would be off-putting, we're shown that Shu still harbors his doubts and thoughtfulness, despite his harsher actions. I thought that this was fairly realistic - Shu was under a lot of pressure, not only because he was somewhat forced into the role of being a leader, but because of the ever-tightening barricade.

I also found it very well-done how the series handled the situations that Shu was placed into. In the beginning, Shu accuses Gai of using people as tools; midway through the beginning, Gai basically reveals how he feels about being the leader. In the second half of the series, Shu is accused of using people as tools, and expresses somewhat similar sentiments as Gai about being a leader. Seeing it go full-circle like that was really nicely done.

Again, like I said about Ayase, on paper all of Shu's actions and attitude in those situations was perfectly justifiable and understandable. Even at the start I remember that some had mentioned that Shu character could indeed become inspirational by his decision to not run away for a second time when Inori was in danger. And you know, there is some of that in the show now in the end with him forgiving everyone for the betrayal. Even the entire point about Shu criticism of Gai as leader and his usage of people as tools was also a nice development about the difficulties of leadership.

However, we get to how it actually played out in the show, and things start to not look as good as they should've been. Episode 10, where Shu goes into his withdrawal, was honestly painful to watch since at that point there was very little reason for me to like Shu as a character, and seeing him actively trying to get people to feel sorry for him made me throw up a little in my mouth. It didn't help when he was trying to take advantage of Hare's feelings either ...

The whole bit about him becoming Führer wasn't that good either, since it came right after the heels of the premise of the need to divide the students into categories according to a device that ranked them according to arbitrary numbers (instead of how useful their voids is, or even their value as a person in labour or something more substantial) that might I add they had not a clue where it came from nor was it a good idea to choose a system that encourages the students to divide against each other (effectively putting an en to the unity you mentioned in the student body and delving the entire thing deeper down the road into further chaos).

As for the Gai/Shu leadership comparison, it might look good in theory but when the actual thing is compared, it falls flat since Shu had went from his wimp stage to his nice leader stage to his Führer stage to his current Jesus one in a very, very short time to the point where I felt it had gotten lost in the middle of all the fast transitioning. Hell, the recape episode underlines the very point you brought across about Shu's hesitation about using his friends as tools better than the show did! That's how badly that sup-plot got muddled up.

So even if I do agree with you that it was a good idea, I'm afraid I don't agree on that it was well done.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Going into it a bit...

Spoiler for Motivations:

I found Hare's death to be a very moving scene, and felt that Shu's reaction was understandable. I wasn't exactly cheering as he beat the snot out of Souta, and I understood where Souta and the rag-tag group of Rank F's were coming from, but at that moment I was also thinking "Souta, you dumb shit." He deserved the blame.

Shu's shift in policies as a response was completely understandable. The threat of death was very real, and everyone was under a lot of pressure. Shu's initial policy of kindness required that everyone take responsibility for their own actions, and make the personal decision to work hard for the collective. In a way, Souta betrayed Shu's kindness. He ran off under the guise of wanting to practice, yet ultimately just endangered himself and the others in the group. Shu, feeling responsible for everyone, went after them. Sadly, Hare paid the price for Soua's well-meaning yet foolish actions, and for Shu's feelings of responsibility. What did Shu get for trusting others, largely letting them operate as they wanted, and for trying to protect them? He lost a close friend, someone who acted as a core pillar of support for him (particularly during that time - Hare was the most supportive), and someone who he arguably had romantic feelings for.

Shu's trust in others was violated, and he lost someone dear to him. That his policies shifted to the opposite extreme isn't surprising. I'd have a problem with that development, if it weren't for the fact that Shu expresses some doubts and unease with the situation to Inori. It showed that while he was handling others somewhat harshly, he was still Shu - someone who worried about how others were doing, and whether they were happy with him and his actions.

I think it's also critical to remember how tense the atmosphere must have been. Even though they didn't always remind us of it in every single episode, the school existed in a realm of relative social chaos. They had limited supplies, and the barricade was constantly being constricted. They were racing against time, but they also knew that they could be targeted at any moment. Even though the students had largely been united and a social order was eventually established, under the circumstances the social order could have broken down and devolved into total chaos at any moment. That aspect, in particular, kept me feeling pretty nervous throughout these episodes.

All what you said was fine, and I agree with you completely that the course of action Shu had taken afterwards, and the F-ranks treatment was understandable. However, this all goes back into how the F-ranks were pushed into this direction after Shu had taken on a system that made the F-ranks feel effectively useless, so again, while the actual development might be sound, the way it started wasn't.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

As for what happened after...

Spoiler for Betrayal:

This all made a lot of sense when I watched it, although in reconsidering it I can see where some problems might exist. For example, they show that some members of the "secret service" idolize Shu. It would be understandable if the low-ranked students revolted, and maybe even some of the higher-ranked ones, but for everyone - or at least, all of the members who were there to witness it - to turn against Shu together?

The way I reason it is that Shu's harshness had already turned a number of people to hold an unfavorable opinion of him. The catalyst that drove everyone to turn against him, though, was the revelation that breaking a void would end a person's life, and that Shu had lied about that (unknowingly, although the students couldn't know that). People had accused Shu of simply using them as tools, but that really brought those accusations to the forefront. Why else would Shu lie? (Of course, we know that Yahiro was actually the one who lied to Shu, but the general student body didn't know and probably wouldn't buy that explanation anyway.)

I thought that they handled this part really, really well. It would have been easy for them to slip up and turn the audience against Shu (and given that some people stopped watching here, maybe they did). To me, though, I was sympathizing with Shu the entire time. His betrayal was almost infuriating as a result: he went through all of that suffering and effort, and these ungrateful SOBs not only oust him from power, but completely cast him out from the group? Screw 'em!

Well, there was the ''MY ARM! MY POWER OF THE KING'' bit, but I do agree with you that the way the betrayal played out was good.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Spoiler for MAJOR Guilty Crown Spoilers:

Now, with Hare, I found that she provided a good contrast to the harsher and/or less talkative people in Shu's life. I think it was good for Shu to have somebody like Hare in his life while he was still gradually rounding into shape. Hare's character was very appealing to me personality-wise, too. I liked how she was bold but not unrealistically so, and caring but not to the point that she'd let herself be disrespected (I loved the one time she stood up to Shu for mistreating her).

Too bad that made him think she wasn't ''there for him'' and only Inori was the one who stood by his side. Guess she should have let him cop a feel after all