[Cynor]

Originally Posted by azul120

The decision was made by Ohgi, one of the subordinates, without a word to the UFN. That's pure insubordination.

They were giving up their key leader, their best chance at victory, as part of their ceasefire. A ceasefire, which by the way, likely meant a cessation of conflict against Britannia, meaning the nation was still a problem for the rest of the world.

Insubordination is the act of a subordinate deliberately disobeying a lawful order. Refusing to perform an action that is unethical or illegal is not insubordination; neither is refusing to perform an action that is not within the scope of authority of the person issuing the order.

But Ohgi ISN'T a subordinate of the UFN... He was a subordinate of Zero, who he DID betray and was insubordinate to, but we're talking about the UFN here. Keep in mind the OotBK aren't tied to a country. They are an INDEPENDENT FORCE who was employed by the UFN. So long as they fulfilled their contract (giving Japan back the UFN) they haven't defied the UFN. It would be TOTALLY different if they were declared like the royal army of Japan or something, and had an allegiance to one of the nations in the UFN. But they are an independent third party, and ultimately they DID fulfill their contract to give Japan back to the UFN.

When talking about the OotBK and the whole organization being insubordinate to the UFN, that doesn't hold true either. Ultimately their "lawful order" was take back Japan. Does the UFN care about the methods or the results though? One would think they care about the results. What does it matter (to the UFN) HOW they take it back so long as it is intact and not turned to dust. A TEMPORARY ceasefire (especially after what happened) doesn't automatically mean that they are giving up and can't take back Japan.

Also, how does a local ceasefire equate to laying down arms all over the globe? If it WAS all over the globe (which since Schneizel isn't in command of all Britannia's forces iirc it COULDN'T be) then it still wouldn't change the fact that the BK aren't tied to a nation. They have a contract to defend yes, and I bet if Britannia were to attack they would defend. A ceasefire doesn't mean you pull up shop and go home, you still have patrols and the like... you just don't shoot someone if you see him.

Plus if Britannia were to attack and break it wouldn't that paint them as villains? Don't you think that would be a GOOD for the UFN? How many countries who maybe were on the fence would come to the UFN then? The civil unrest would be pushed even higher as citizens wonder if their Government can be trusted.

Originally Posted by azul120

Not to mention there's no guarantee they wouldn't go after Japan again.

So lets say they never had the ceasefire and Lelouch was never exposed. OotBK wins back Japan. Do you think Britannia is just going to go all "Oh well guys, we didn't really want Japan anyways so they can have it!" and not attack and try to take it back? Consider how much technology runs on Sakuradite and where most of it comes from. Do you really think Britannia is going to lay down and NOT try to take it back?

If you think on it, the way it actually worked out they have a better chance to be left in peace. By giving Japan back Britannia opens the door for peace. Keep in mind they only really declared war because Japan was part of the UFN and it's homeland was "occupied" by Britannia. Once that was taken care of... well who knows for sure, but if there weren't other member states who were "occupied" then by them giving it back maybe the UFN and Britannia may not be able to live in peace as 2 super powers in the world? Well for a time at least...

Originally Posted by azul120

You're using Villetta as en example? Don't mean to sound crass, but oh brother. She was the ENEMY, who had been keeping Lelouch under surveillance early in R2. He blackmailed her to get out of her grip. Don't tell me she didn't have it coming, especially after she tried to use Shirley on him, and had already used Lelouch as a stepping stone towards nobility. She practically played the victim card there.

Not practically, she DID. I'm not saying she wasn't an enemy or didn't have it coming. What I'm saying is that things taken out of context can look very bad. Lelouch had every right and reason to take out the Order, they were a dangerous foe with powers that could turn tides in battles. If Lelouch had shared the information about WHY he was taking it out with Todo, then Todo wouldn't have reason to mistrust him later on. The same can be said the information Villetta had.

How much do you want to bet that if he had just informed a few of the higher ups in the BK (like Todo and Ohgi) of Geass (and maybe his identity) that things would have turned out much differently. With Kallen backing him that their wills were their own, how much would have changed? Ohgi probably would have come clean about Villetta, then that whole mess could have been avoided somehow. Todo would have known about the reasons to attack the order, and there wouldn't have been that worm of doubt about "we can't trust Zero".

When Schneizel lands and plays that recording they woulda been all "yea? So what? We knew all about that already... now get outa here." (Note they couldn't have taken him hostage because of Anya with the F.L.E.I.J.A. warhead). I really think the biggest reason for the betrayal wasn't the Massacre Princess thing, but rather the fear and shock of learning about Geass.

I mean someone (I think Todo) was saying that if it was true (Zero having Geass) it would be a great and powerful weapon. THEN Schneizel goes all "if he only used it on enemies..." and THAT is when things get ugly. If they had known already and had already passed that hurdle of fear... if they hadn't right then thought about the worry that they weren't acting of their own free will and he was playing them all along... again, I bet things would have turned out much differently.

A small part may also have been that Lelouch still lead them into battle when he had been informed about F.L.E.I.J.A. being equipped on the Lancelot, but who would believe that until it was also fired. Even Suzaku was all like "you want to do WHAT now?" Once he fired it obviously people knew it was real, but that was the same time that he went bonkers from "losing" Nunnally. If everyone already knew of he went into that, then the seeds of doubt (besides having not been planted in the first place) wouldn't have sprouted like they did.