[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Your first fact was never presented. I really wonder why people keep saying that whereas Itachi said nothing of the sort.
The second may be false but I wouldn't bet too much on that yet. Itachi said that to obtain the same eyes than him Sasuke should kill his best friend.
Key word : the same. Does Kakashi had the same MS than Itachi?
I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I'm aware of that. The point of me bringing it up is to show how sometimes it's easy to draw conclusions based on the way one interprets the meaning of the words and take them to be "fact". If we didn't have the obvious contradiction of Kakashi having MS it would be easy to assume from the words he said to Kakashi that he meant only someone with an Uchiha bloodline could obtain it, unless you are someone who intreprets things only literally verbatim as they are stated.

Originally Posted by Suna no Tate

Completely ridiculous right? Ok. here are my points. The guys in konoha clearly believe the 4th is dead. Yet, if the fourth is physically naruto, they'd have found the baby amongst the clothes.

Who says that the clothes remained? When Naruto performs Sexy no jutsu and turns into a nude woman, where the hell do his clothes go? Who knows? Who cares? Plot device.

There's also the issue of gamambunta being present during the entire sealing. Remember how Enma saw what happened with the 3rd and orochimaru. Remember how he was around to look at the dead body of the 3rds? Technically speaking, gamabunta saw it all, and if the 4th is naruto, gamabunta would be all over that. He would flat out have seen it. Gamabunta and jiraiya are friends. Jiraiya would know that too. But, neither gamabunta no jiraiya believe that.

Was Gamabunta even shown in the battle in the manga? Even if he was there in the canon story, it doesn't mean he stayed through the whole Shiki Fujin process like Enma did.

Finally, I think its stupid when if there's no body, to assume someone's dead or at least right away. I mean, after itachi disappeared, people in konoha didn't just assume he was dead after him being away for a couple years. Until he's found, technically from a military point of view, he's missing in action. They can't call him dead till there's good proof his dead and they wouldn't call him dead until there was good proof. Him simply not being there isn't good enough to call anyone dead. That logic that the ANBU guys and Sandaime use in the above conversation is so twisted that its ridiculous and thats the logic that must be accepted to believe Naruto is the 4th (assuming no dead body of the 4th was ever found. If his body was found, then this whole thread is a waste of time).

Well Yondi was in a deadly fight with a nigh-unstoppable demon, there's not many outcomes to that. And considering the heaps of ninja the Kyuubi had probably already slaughtered, I'd go ahead and assume he was dead too. There was no question to whether Itachi was alive or not b/c Sasuke saw him alive with his own eyes.