[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

If that's so, however, it means that we have absolutely no idea whether a scene is part of a Forgery/MBS or not. For example, it's not just a layer exclusion in this case, and elements of the pre-October 4th scenes recur in Turn, so it's not just a matter of saying "the scenes where Shannon and Kanon meet Beatrice and discuss love and junk can be excised."

You can't merely remove that part, because scenes like Kanon fighting for Jessica and so forth don't make a lot of sense with those bits removed yet are definitely part of the October 4th/5th narrative. So those parts would also have to be removed or changed... meaning that, well, how do we know which parts are added in and which parts were "originally" in the Forgery?

The only chance to insert them would be to have the forgery structure different from the one we have so that those scenes would be flashbacks or would come up thanks to character dialogues in those 2 days. For example we could have Shannon confess to... let's say George that she broke the mirror due to Beatrice's pushing when she accepted his ring.

Of course an huge problem with the forgeries then would be:

if the forgeries are made to look like Maria's retelling of those two days... how could Maria know about what George and Shannon talked? Or what was said after she was pushed out of Kinzo's study?

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

So we are going with someone didn't kill Nanjo and then die (likely Kyrie)?

The problem is that Kyrie was clearly witnessed by Battler as death. If I'm not wrong she had a stake clearly stiking in her stomach.

And I say this with regret as I've toyed with the idea Kyrie could be a culprit in EP 3... but the best she might have done is to kill Hideyoshi.

Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker

Also what is the Jessica room trick someone referred to?

The one about Maria's voice? It's not placed in Jessica's room though. In Ep 7 when she secretly went in the VIP room to prove Beato didn't exist she received a phone call in the middle of the night during which she heard Maria singing.

Maria didn't answer her when she called her and later denied making the call.
The most likely explanation is that Maria's voice had been recordered.

As in EP 1 we get another phonecall with Maria singing I wonder if that time too the same trick was used to give Yasu more time to act.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It is also possible that none of the message bottles, or maybe not even the forgeries, ever had any fantasy scenes inside them. There was this thing Beatrice said (paraphrased): "Slowly the barrier around Rokkenjima gets stronger and more and more demons will be able to enter.", or something of that kind. And then from EP6 on, the talk about a "reader" that can bring falsehoods into the storytelling.

Well, considering the tale is being told by Maria she could have written stuffs like Beato turning into butterflies and leaving/entering a room in Ep 1 or turning a smashed candy in a good one in EP 2.

So maybe there was a little magic in the tales... though maybe the giant amount of it in the following episodes was due to the forgerers' interpretation of what Maria wrote.

After all EP 1 presents only the implication it could be magic due to a child insisting it's so and stuffs that can't be explained, it doesn't have the huge magic scenes the other episodes have.

However a forgerer, reading it, might feel allowed to add as much magic as he likes.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think what we see in the story is just the interpretation of someone from 1998+ (Yukari, Tohya, Ikuko or others). The "reader" may change at some points though and possibly add their own interpretation or even knowledge into the story (or perhaps there can be multiple readers at once, which explains the "chaotic" nature of EP8). And so while the first story (legend) from our perspective seems to be free of falsehood (which as we know now, isn't), the following stories are more and more magical fantasy stories, that seem to be out of place.

*nods* exactly.

Originally Posted by Renall

What of Kinzo? Essentially every Kinzo scene is magical. Which scenes involving him were there and which, if any, were added? Was the "Natsuhi's heart" scene in Legend or not? Were the scenes of Kinzo mourning Beatrice or not? Was the scene of him tossing his ring to Beatrice or not?

"I liked it a lot. Still, if you don't explain that part about the ocean currents a bit more clearly, it might be a little unfair for the reader... Oh, but I thought it was great that you had the foreshadowing with the ring right there at the beginning. ......After I finished, I had to go back to the beginning and slap myself for being so easily tricked. I think that feeling's the best part of a detective novel."

Okay, so the tale Ikuko handed to Tohya might have been something completely different from a Rokkenjim forgery but I was always amused by how Battler mentions things that seems to fit with them, like the currents (which can be a reference to them carrying the message bottles) and, of course, the ring at the beginning (which can refer to the scene of Kinzo passing the title of head to Yasu/Beatrice).

It's likely coincidental though, as it is the fact that Will defended a maid at the beginning of Ep 7...

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

One thing going on in Legend is that there are lots of false scenes that Piece-Battler thinks happened because some witness that he trusts told him they happened. I think we might see them for the same reason we think we see Meta-Battler getting cornered in EP6, namely that the reader (Tohya/Meta-Battler in EP1 and Ange in EP6) is filling in the blanks based on the available info. That goes for at least a significant number of the Kinzo scenes.

On the other hand, Meta-Battler talks about Kanon's exciting death scene in the tea party, so there's at least one blatantly false, or at least metaphorical, scene that does seem to have been present in the original narrative. So, I'm not sure.

I need to recheck that part but couldn't be that Battler referred to it in such way because he assumed that's how it happened? Kanon dying while fighting off Beatrice?