[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by totoum

Looks like I didn't make myself clear,you're right,but I never said he created this situation "Sayaka fights Kyoko",the situation he created is madoka being there to see that fight:he's fully responsible for that,if he hadn't gone to see madoka she would have never been there.

Yeah, but that's still strange to me, because it would be something that Madoka would want to know. So he's manipulating her, by telling her exactly what she wants to know? That feels like it's stretching the definition to me.

Indeed,that's the only way you're going to get Madoka to be a magical girl because she really doesn't want to unless she has to,that's why making her witness a fight that her friend has no chance to win is a good way to make her have no choice but become a MG :she's a kind girl that will do something that she really doesn't want to so she can save her friend.But Madoka actually tried another way:throw her soul gem away,turns out that wasn't a really good idea.

If we've established that Madoka is doing what she would have done anyway (that is, go to stop Sayaka), then how is it manipulation?

edit: I actually don't quite agree with the statement "that the target was almost helpless against it, and had no choice but to go along." but rather that the target is in a state of mind where he/she thinks that they have no choice but to go along but that might or might not be the case.

Again, what happens to personal responsibility? Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of this makes it out to be Kyube's fault. But Madoka is as much at fault, if not more so, because it is her own decisions that keep landing her in these situations. Kyube can say he wants her all he wants, but she has to decide on her own. If you take away Madoka's role in this, then you do a disservice to the ideal of personal responsibility. We are all responsible for our own choices.

I live in the US, so perhaps it has shaped my viewpoint to see people suing each other over stupid things, such as someone suing because their coffee was hot. That's why we have stupid disclaimers such as a "Do not eat" label on hammers. Whenever something bad happens, someone will sue. A golfer was on a golfing range and hit his golf ball, which rebounded off a pole and hit him in the head. He is now suing the owners of the golf course. The owners didn't tell him that little detail of how the pole could reflect balls back at him.

If you persist in blaming Kyube and calling Madoka helpless, you're setting up the exact same kind of atmosphere we have in the US: "It is always someone else's fault, no matter how stupid I was."

How about both?I blame him and find him manipulative and I slap myself on the head because I should have known better.

The courts would rule that the person selling the apple hasn't done anything wrong. It's called the principle of "Buyer Beware."

I can't speak for the others but to me influence alone isn't enough,it's influencing someone using shady methods like withholding information,so no,you can't throw out the withholding information part

I wasn't throwing it out, but setting it aside for the moment. All of us go through life making transactions and conversation without knowing every detail, because no every detail is important enough to change the situation. To go back to my TV example, I would be laughed out of court if I attempted to sue claiming the salesman never told me the range on the remote. I would be very bluntly told it was my fault and perhaps I should be more careful next time, before signing a contract.

Originally Posted by herbert

It is a matter of degree. If you just dislike the word of "manipulation" How about think a little bit about hard selling versus soft selling? Both legal sales approaches, but hard selling pisses most people off.

I can agree to calling Kyube's tactics soft selling, because he is telling her quite often that he can make her an MG, in situations where it would help. The first time, her life was in danger due to Mami dying, and it was Madoka's choice to go in. Kyube didn't create that situation, but once Mami died, their lives were in danger.

The second when Kyoko showed up. Kyube was pushing it, but he was quite correct that only another MG could get between them. Again, it was Madoka's choice to go along. Most of the rest of the time, he seems more content to wait and have her hold back and think about it. Kyube certainly wasn't complaining that Madoka chose to go along, but he comes across to me more like a salesman, doing the only thing he is capable of doing.

Originally Posted by John Smith

Differences in opinion or definition are rarely ever changed. I'll examine a few situations if you really want to understand my point of view.

Sometimes, but I personally like debates, because it helps me understand others at the very least. And people reading them become better informed. I can't speak for others, but it does help me address weaknesses in my argument. So even if no minds are changed, there is still benefit to them.

My usual use of manipulation is an act where you subtly and actively influence someone to do a particular action, which they wouldn't do under normal circumstances. So in this case a sales pitch can be a form of manipulation but it depends on the situation. (I'll note again. I don't necessarily use the word manipulation in a negative light.)

Except I'm trying to keep analogies closer to what Kyube is doing, and covering other forms of sales pitches would be going off topic (and maybe we are, a bit, but what we're discussing covers the Sayaka/Kyoko fight so technically valid, heh). That's why I phrased my TV example to match what Kyube was doing.

A salesman told me repeatedly that he wants to sell me a TV, but most of the time, told me to think it over carefully. I don't see that as manipulation, because he is telling me straight up what he would like to do: engage in a mutually beneficial transaction. It is up to me. And if I keep putting myself in positions where my current TV could break, that is my fault. And if I buy a TV without making sure all the connectors are good, and it works, and it's in good condition, etc. then it is solely my fault for not doing what I should.

The salesman may be taking advantage of the fact that my TV is broken to remind me that he can sell me a TV, but he isn't manipulating me at all. He's just taking advantage of the situation.

However, say he happens to meet a technologically illiterate couple and he quickly catches on. They tell him they want a TV under <$500 but using technobabble (all true) he eventually convinces them to to buy one for $1000. That is an act of manipulation because he is aggressively influencing their opinion by taking advantage of the lack of technological knowledge. Now, he might be a sweet fellow who is looking to support his siblings because his parents died, and this might be the best purchase the couple has made within the last 5 years. But to me none of that is relevant because he is intentionally manipulating their original desire into his own.

It is the couple's fault for buying the TV. You act like they're helpless, but they can research well in advance what they want, and they merely have to hold firm on it. If they walk out with the wrong TV, it is their fault, legally speaking. As I mentioned above, it's called "Buyer Beware." That's how it is in the US, at least.

Note that I make clear distinctions between the action, desire and end result. Here his action is talking (all truthful), his desire is to manipulate their opinion into a monetary gain, and the end result is that everyone is happy.

It still comes across as you trying to equate straightforward honesty with manipulation. I'm sorry, but I can't get behind that. If you think someone being honest with you is manipulating you, then you must think I'm manipulating you right now for being honest in how I feel about the situation.

You are being honest with me... are you trying to manipulate me, then?

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Except that Kyuube hasn't been subtle in what he wants. He has told Madoka (and Sayaka) repeatedly that he can fulfill whatever wish they want for the price of becoming a magical girl to fight the witches.

Add in a helping of persistence and being able to wait patiently for the right moment to appear makes him a worthy opponent to be wary of.

Thank you! I'd agree he can come across as a pushy salesman, but not manipulative.

If I sell anti-bear guns and let you know about it a few times, being quite forward with the fact that I want to make money, and you say no but keep tromping through bear territory and keep getting attacked by bears, and after running away I remind you that I can sell you an anti-bear gun... am I being manipulative? Or just a pushy salesman? I didn't make you tromp through bear territory; you did that on your own.