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Old 2011-08-24, 07:58   Link #23902
Wanderer
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
I'm going to respond to your post somewhat out of order.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Actually Dawn is not problematic at all, as long as you disregard BATTLERs crazy shennanigans with reviving Beatrice and restoring the lost love...probably all just for Bern so she is terribly, terribly confused and disgusted by all the sugarcoating and rather "eats her guts and dies".
Unless I misunderstand your theory, episode 6 seems pretty problematic for you, too. I am of the impression that you think that the meta world (complete with magical scenes) is all projected from Touya's mind. Then what's with episode 6 Miko-Ange? If BATTLER is merely meta-projecting the love duel story, rather than writing it, then how come Miko-Ange can read it?

Although, skimming through it again I pretty much came to the conclusion that the Ange-Ikuko/Featherine scenes were meta-meta. Like, truly meta between Ryuukishi (Featherine) and us (Ange). Definitely not laterally related with BATTLER's meta world like I suggested before.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
No, actually it makes a lot more reliable, because you can actually say that everything presented to us as a magic scene is just a magical explanation of what is actually happening. Of course it could just be terrible bullshit and actually the scenes happened totally different than what we saw...but why the hell would a writer do that?! It's as if the things the little boy saw at the hotel in Shining wasn't actually developing the places past but was in fact just him having played too many violent videogames...
You kidding? Ask Ryuukishi. I mean, it's his fucking trademark.

Also because Yasu wants people to think Beatrice exists. And because Touya decided that it's best people don't know what actually happened. And what AuraTwilight said. And maybe 'cause it's just plain fun.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Let's take an example I made up. Jessica is found dead in a room...and as an explanation I'll give you that Virgilia showed up in front of Jessica after Gaap had warped her into the room and forced her to choose whom of her parents should die. They are watching Krauss and Natsuhi through a magic mirror, because of course nobody with a master key was among them so they couldn't see what was happening in the room just opposite of the one their in, unless the doors were open. At the end, of course, Natsuhi is found dead in the other room.
There is a terribly easy explanation to this when you know the solutions and the magic version actually helps...you just have to use it correctly.
Yes, magic scenes can be just as useful for solving individual puzzles regardless of whether they come from novel-text or they're limited purely to the meta-world.

However, written text indicates that the scene is meant to convey something. Written, the magic scenes are a coded message from Beatrice (at least in Legend and Turn) in the form of a challenge to Battler, with the ultimate goal of Battler unveiling Beatrice's true form; it was Yasu's shy way to get Battler to notice and understand her. The magical scenes lose this warm backdrop if they are instead generated entirely from Touya's own imagination, and they also lose their usefulness in understanding how Touya, Yasu, and Ange interact with each other and the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yes, the love duel is absolutely meta, which is also implied by chick-Beato entering it together with older sister Beato after they visited the meta-plane of Ange and Featherine and later being joined by BATTLER...not to mention being conducted by Zepar and Furfur who basically also exist as conductors on the meta-plane and don't exist as a physical presence on the island at all. It is basically just 3 people (Shkannontrice, George and Jessica) getting their shit together and finally trying to decide matters. Hell, the whole second half takes place while they are locked in different rooms...how is this not meta?!
Okay. I've reviewed episode 6. You're right. My doubts were unfounded and quite retarded. The duel is definitely meta.

However, I'm not convinced that the magic murder scenes are, as they are directly used to explain plot advancements in Dawn's 1986-Rokkenjima story, complete with Gaap teleporting Eva's corpse into the VIP room from outside. Yes, we all know they are not actually killed until Erika gets to them, but that's normal; a false magical narrative is a legitimate gamemaster's trick for trying to convince their opponents that witches exist.

In other words, if it was a purely meta-event, why does it go out of the way to create a fantasy narrative logically consistent with the mystery narrative?

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's even more obvious that it isn't in the narrative if you consider how Erika is probably supposed to be the arm of the readership who crave for a cruel and logical answer (represented in spirit by Bern). She never even notices the bloody thing happening...she is wondering who might have killed the people in those rooms and if they ever died at all, so she just beheads them all...and later she searches for some stupid excuses like George being Kanon when we (the readers) actually just saw Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice merging to the narration of Zepar and Furfur how they are parts of one soul who must become one to fullfil their true love...
I mean come on...if that was in the narrative and the readers in the Umineko universe didn't get it they'd have to be pretty darn dumb.
Earlier on, Erika remarks how boring the love scenes are. After the first twilight she acts as though she's been asleep. Obviously something happened on the game board during the first twilight, which she slept through; she just didn't care to watch it. Why? Well, remember how automatically and completely she denies magic? Remember how in End she never bothers to investigate corpses? Remember how at the end of her red/blue battle with Battler in episode 8, she hadn't even thought about the answer until the last second? She simply doesn't think or approach problems like an even remotely normal person does; either she pays attention to something and understands it perfectly, or she completely overlooks it. And any magical narrative is automatically pure noise to her. SO IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW CLEARLY IT'S SPELLED OUT TO HER; SHE WILL NEVER GET IT. As Will would say, "she ignores the heart".

However, a "good" reader, like Ange, gets it.

Interesting quotes from episode 6 Tea Party:
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Ange: It seems that island......really was a crazy island of illusions.
Affirms written magic narrative.
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Ikuko: As thanks for the considerable time you have given me, .........I will someday write your tale.
Ange: Am I going to appear in another of your forgeries? ......I hope you kill me in a slightly better way this time.
Whoa. Doesn't this pretty much confirm that episode 4's 1998 Ange was Hachijou fiction?
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Ange:..........That Featherine witch, who appeared within the tale. ......That's... you, right?
Ikuko: It may be presumptuous to say, but that was my intention.
Ange: This might be a strange question, but.... ummm... .........Are you Featherine? Or is Featherine you?
Ohhhh boy... Doesn't this mean the meta-narrative was written too?

It's still a bit uncertain, because it's hard to tell when episode 6 Ikuko/Featherine is truly speaking as "Hachijou Touya" and when she's speaking as Ryuukishi himself.
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