[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by NCP

Consider this. As someone else pointed out, Irisu is a very "the ends justify the means" type of person. She is willing to do almost whatever it takes (in this case manipulating pretty much everyone around her) to get the job done. She admitted as much when she said "I was not in a position to let the project fail" after being called out by (presumably) Oreki's sister. Of course, when the "ends" are a success, people usually tend to forget all about the "means". And this is exactly what happens. As was shown in episode 10, everyone loved the movie. In fact, they were going to have a party to celebrate its success. Now, don't you think that if the narrative were really attempting to cast Irisu in a negative light, then it would have made the movie a failure instead, in spite of Irisu's best efforts? It would have been a nice "Hahaha that's what you get for being a manipulative ****" kind of statement. But that isn't what happened. As it turns out, at the end of the day, Irisu wasn't affected negatively at all by what transpired with Oreki.

I think you're wrong there. I'm reminded of Bujold's distinction between honor and reputation. About how the worst was to have your reputation soaring while your honor lies broken at your feet. That's what happened to her (on a small scale), I think. She salvaged the project. It's a success. Woo. But she used dirty means, Houtarou got hurt, and she feels guilty. She can't enjoy her victory.

Furthermore, you say that her portrayal was very "black-and-white". Once again, I must respectfully disagree. Notice that during their final confrontation, Oreki never once accuses her of wrong-doing. He does not blame her for the fact that he feels like crap. He says nothing like "You did something horrible and should feel bad." He simply asks her to admit whether she was lying or not when they first met in the cafe. Oreki was not aggressively pressing her to admit she was wrong. And how does she respond? With some stone-cold indifference.

I don't think it was indifference. I think that, true to form, she reached for something to say, true or false, that would resolve the situation - and came up empty. The words to make Houtarou feel good about being used don't exist, or maybe she just couldn't think of them any more than I can. So she... froze. Neither confessing nor denying nor justifying nor apologizing. From his point of view, it wasn't the worst thing she could have done, but it's not close to good, either.

And finally, that chatroom scene. While even I'll admit that it was a pretty damning scene, I'll once again say that any negative impressions of Irisu were brought about primarily by her own character faults. Notice how till the end she continues to play both Hongou and Oreki's sister. Not only that but she lets her cheekiness get the better of her. Luckily, Hongou is clueless and Irisu is able to brush it off with a simple "Nevermind". But unfortunately for Irisu, Oreki's sis isn't so easy to fool. Irisu left open a hole ("There wouldn't be any point in bluffing...) and Oreki's sis just plows right through it. But notice how not only does the narrative allow Irisu to attempt to justify herself, it also leaves things quite ambiguous and allows viewers to decide whether or not her justification holds any weight. Oreki's sis does not reprimand her further or call her defense BS. Instead she simply logs out. Once again, I would hardly call that heavy handed.

Not really disagreeing, but her interlocutor, who presumably aimed Irisu at the Classics Club and told her how to make them dance, is hardly the best person to fault her for anything anyway.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And you think it's better to be totally heartless?

So you think it's better to be like, say, Kyubey or Lex Luthor than to be like Irisu?

Wow, Flower, I'm genuinely surprised by what you're saying here.

And I also completely disagree with you on it.

It's the truly heartless people that are the most dangerous, because you can't appeal to them emotionally or persuade them to feel empathy or sympathy for the people that they hurt. You can't change them. You'd have an easier time getting through to Irisu than you would getting through to Kyubey or Lex Luthor.

It's a common theme in fiction. Heroes, even when outmatched, win because they fight for more than themselves. Villains are limited by their own self interest. You can't appeal to their emotions, but you can reason with them, even if your argument is "desist or I'll put a bullet through your head". Heroes, OTOH, are notoriously unreasonable. There's no telling what they'll do.