[Urei]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

The YF-19 and YF-21 ultimately could both move faster than was safe for the pilots, but from what I could see the shape-changing wing and the vector-thrusting that was a legacy of the Queadlunn-Rau design the YF-21 was based on made a huge difference with regards to the manueverability of the YF-21. VF-19's faster, but the VF-22 dives and climbs harder, and seems to turn better even if it has less overall thrust, and so can (especially with the larger number of micromissiles we saw Guld use) box a target in to kill it faster.

Well, considering specs of VF-22 as well as YF-21 it's Rate-of-Climb is much lower then YF/VF-19. This properly shows how much power difference we have in both of those Fighters. Diving ability is also a part of engines output potential so I'm guessing YF/VF-19 still does better then 21/22. If the flexible wings are somewhat capable of negating the 1 ton mass increase of the General Galaxy Fighter then this is probably the place where it can catch up to the 19. Then again, I feel sorry for VF-19 because it lacks the canards it's prototype had.

Those canards give a plane added stability as well as maneuverability. You see, my problem with the 21/22 Fighter is that realistically wise it is not possible for it to catch up to 19 with it's specs. Both present similar technology but as long as the limiters stay present on 21/22 it is bound to perform worse then 19.

This 'worse' exact amount is not know and we certainly saw that there is little to no difference in the anime but I'd rather take that as a plot necessary aspect of the show.

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Not a core, but still it was used with the elites, and Gamlin along with Diamond Force ended up flying the buggers as the VF-19's and VF-22's were only starting to come into service at this point (2045, or about five years after the ATF competitions which resulted in the final decision. Not a bad pace compared to real-life procurement processes. And you'll note that the VF-11 Thunderbolt was still considered a mainline fighter, as the VF-171 is in the 'current' (2059) timeframe.

I think we both can agree on this statemnt. It's satisfactory enough.

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Gravity is an insignificant force in space combat unless you're close to a planet's gravity well, and the deforming wings were supposed to help it in-atmosphere. The rear-facing canard just above the cockpit would've reduced the VF-19's maximum speed in atmosphere somewhat (which may be reflected in the stats that show it having a significant drop in speed compared to space) as it did with the VF-11. The biggest advantage for the VF-22/YF-21 based on how it heavily borrowed elements from the Queadlunn-Rau and other Zentradi power armor was that it was MUCH more maneuverable in space, and could literally turn on a dime while packing a lot of missiles.

In atmosphere, it could do very well... but at the same time the VF-19 did have an edge due to the way its wings and canard were set up, from what I could tell, and Isamu pushed it to its very limits.

Yes, gravity has little to no effect when you're flying in the depths of space. Then again, you'll always feel the g.forces because of the mass of your plane and it's acceleration. But that's beside the point.

I really hope the space modification of VF-22 had something to do with it's abilities. Even in space you have to have increased thrust / vernier output to move better, especially that mass. The specs say nothing significant about thrust so maybe verniers? I really can't tell.

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Speed's important for catching up with a target - but maneuverability comes heavily into play, and the VF-22 system seems to excel with that due to its thrusters and everything else it stole from the Zentradi designs. Of course, considering who founded General Galaxy, 'stole' is probably the wrong term to use with them. Speed is really important in intercept and pursuit missions where you have to catch up with or just catch a target - it lets you pull into range faster to fight. With BARCAP and FORCAP roles, it's less important than being able to maneuver and just latch onto the enemy craft... which Bowman and later Max and Millia managed to do very well with these superior craft.

Well, the thing with speed is tricky. It really depends where your craft is able to produce the said speed. We can have an afterburner speed or supercriuse speed like the present F-22. VF-19 speed comes solely from it's engines huge output. If the plane has the whole range of that engine power at standby in pilot's throttle leaver then it can perform a new range of maneuvers. Thrust vectoring of 19 along with it's acceleration abilities give it an edge in turning, climbing maneuvering. The problem here is how much the flexible wings can compete with all of that.

Then again, if we assume that zentradi tech was able to provide it a great deal of really powerful verniers then I guess we can say that 21/22 is comparable to 19 if not better. It's only an assumption though

Originally Posted by Haesslich

As for the VF-25S, the stats we have so far to compare with the VF-25F don't show any real difference performance-wise between the two, although historically pilots with squadron leader mecha tended to have better performance and maintenance done on the vehicles. Whether this was due to it being the squadron leader's mecha, or the squadron leaders historically being the best pilots (thus being able to pull more out of the mecha) is the question. The main thing that amazed Alto was that the Super pack, which was designed for extra performance in space combat, was not giving him an automatic edge over Ozma with the 'heavy Armored pack' that added four beam guns (on the shoulders), all those extra micromissile launchers, a radar unit for them, and extra armor plating on what would become the torso and arms and legs of the mecha (also containing micromissiles).

I think we weren't shown the full set of stas for both of the fighters. As you said, history has shown us that the leader always has a better unit. I just wonder how much. Still, I'd always take VF-25F over the darker S version simply because of the color scheme



EDIT. Well, this is how I see the competition between 19 and 22. I can't add much more then that so I'll just make this my last statement.

Rep + for a nice discussion on Macross. The thread really needed that