[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Macbrother

Your point of showing all that was? Where once among those paragraphs did I make any mention of Yondaime? Zero. Yes, we had plenty of side-discussion about 'shinobi' in general, I never said we didn't, I just said I wasn't using regular shinobi to prove anything about Yondaime, I was using the sannin, which I can use as they are still strong at 50. I don't need to know how strong they were before, all I need to know that there strength is indeed still legendary at 50, with no evidence showing they were stronger when they were young, but evidence to the contrary in the new jutsu they have developed.

Your bad faith is just laughable, all these point were answer to the effect of age on Ninja in general and thus on the Sannin and Yondaime as well, just re-read your point about 'john the ninja' lol, it was all your argument used to say that the Sannin were stronger than when they were younger and thus that the 4th would have became even stronger and stronger during the 25 next years (and not just during a certain time).

And no the Sannin do not make a perfect example of how the geniuses grow with age given that we don't don't how their strength grow since their youth.
The fact that they're still strong doesn't mean that they are stronger. Sarutobi was still strong, he wasn't stronger than when he was young.
They have new jutsu? Yeah that doesn't prove that it's enough to compensate their young health.
You have no evidence of the contrary you just wish for because you like the idea.

Except you make this statement out of ignorance, because you at no point in time know when and what age Sarutobi was when he established whatever legend he did, whatever feat he accomplished. The point here being only Sarutobi had surely 30-40 years of being Hokage at least, where Yondaime had maybe 3 or 4. That is much, much more time to build up a legend.

Don't make me laugh, you know nothing either about that, all your points are completely guesses since the beginning.

Your anecdotal evidence is meaningless, I can easily say my experiences with the elderly are very much different. I never said wisdom was 'automatic', obviously that concept is not going to be the same with everyone, but it's definitely the case with many and surely would be the case for a genius.

If you admit that wisdom doesn't come automatically with age then my point remains, you have no point on the evolution of the 4th, just wish.

And genius doesn't mean wisdom at all, actually many genius aren't wise and lack of common sense for the very fact that they're not common.
Oro is a genius I wouldn't call him wise.

What exactly is the context of this discussion? Wisdom outside of battle? Who was the smartest hokage? No, of course not, obviously this is going to be wisdom as it pertains to a hokage's fighting ability, again, I'm not reducing anything, I'm placing it as it relates to the context of this discussion.

No, you use unprecise words to try to make point, does knowledge will improve with age? Yeah in all probability, does Jutsu knowledge will improve with age? Just maybe.
And finally do new jutsus will improve strength?
Once again just maybe, any jutsu aren't enough to improve consequently the strength of the user or Kakashi would be Kage level since a long time.

If you can't see the difference between there not being a difference period, and there not being a difference we can notice, I'm not going to explain it again.

You didn't explained anything to begin with, you merely stated your belief.
You just said that if there must be a difference then it's noticeable because... that doesn't fit with your point so difference : trace.
That's not an exaplanation that's just your wish again and again.

As for evidence, I have. The fact that they have developed new jutsu which greatly increased their strength (immortality, edo tensei, souzou saisei) and the fact that not once have we seen them make a reference to or appear to be hindered by age. Again, I didn't ask you for proof, as what I just mentioned isn't proof either, but it is evidence that points to it, I merely ask you for yours. At least try to back it up with info or drop the claim.

My evidence was the complete fallen state of Sarutobi that you could only countered by your usual answer when you have no answer : 'it's different in the world of Naruto', without any evidence of that btw.

The immortality jutsu put Oro out the point, the discussion was about the effect of age on Youndame not time alone, you still have no proof nor evidence that Oro learned the Edo Tensei at whetever age.
And the Souzou Saisei doesn't make obligatory Tsunade stronger than she was, if her young self was just faster enough than her old untrained self then it doesn't matter, the young version of Tsunade would just beat to a pulp her old self who could only regenerate the awful damage of Tsunade's blows some times before giving up on chakra.

never said they were the same thing, in fact I said exactly what you repeat here, that physical energy ties into the amount of chakra one is able to mold. However, the point is, chakra is composed of (2) things, physical and spiritual energy. We do not know which if any are greater, so I imagine we just assume they both have an equal weight in determining one's chakra. (if they do not, and spiritual energy plays more of a role, then that means age plays less of a role). If Orochimaru casts off his body, he is losing half of that enormous sannin-level chakra, and is replacing it with someone he picked, using a new source for physical energy, therefore his chakra must be affected, unless the body he chose happened to also have enormous physical energy, which considering how rare the chakra of the sannin is, I doubt is very easy, if even possible, to find. That's if physical energy plays an equal role.

You don't say it but you reason as it's the case, Oro doesn't lose half of his chakra, he takes a body having its own stamina adding the power of his own soul, actually if the stolen body is well trained and powerful it's can be even better than previously especially if Oro's original body wasn't that good because Taijutsu wasn't his speciality.
Btw if it's obviously possible to create chakra imbued with more of one of the two energy, the result is unstable.

I don't think we know enough about this jutsu to make this sort of claim. When she reverted back, she did so due to chakra exhaustion. If what you're saying is true, then using this jutsu would augment almost everything about her, including her overall chakra capacity. I'm not saying it's a genjutsu, because it's probably not, her appearence change is real, but that doesn't necessarily mean her heart, lungs, muscles, etc, are all youthful. If you have a manga reference that states that explicitly, however, I'll go with that.

And I think Tsunade was pretty clear about that when she said that she will be alright when her body would return to its young form.
The very fact that her physical strength remains the same than 30 years ago whereas the age and the state of her body out of her jutsu is in a pitiful and even older state that it should be due to her jutsu shows that.

You're the one who is dreaming. Yes, age is of course constant, the effects of age on the body are not, necessarily. I age 5 years from 35 to 40. Does that mean I lose the exact same health as I do from aging 55-60? No, of course not, my body is probably degenerating more rapidly at an older age than at a younger age, which explains why at 67 Sarutobi didn't stand a chance against a 50-year-old Orochimaru, but at 50 he could've defeated a 33 year-old one.

I didn't say that the effects of age are constant, I said that these effect start to appear before 50 years old.
Oh and it was more like a 20~25 years old Orochimaru, he's not in his old body anymore remember?

You said:

Which is not what I said. Try your own medicine before doling it out to others.

=

Originally Posted by macbrother

Like I said earlier, it's likely that in Naruto the aging process is either extremely slow, or non-existant at 50, since Tsunade hasn't lost an ounce, neither has Jiraiya apparently. I've never heard him make a comment about age hindering him, either. As you so often like to point out, "grats on seeing shonen manga are exaggerated." Well guess what, you think maybe its' exaggerated in this case too? Likely.

This is exactly what you said.

Again, there's nothing that implies the contract is signed upon execution. We have no idea what he means by signing a contract with the jutsu itself.

What other mean has 'You must sign the contract with the jutsu to see the god of death than this one?
You merely didn't see that he said signed with the jutsu and thus assumed that you should sign a contract with the Shinigami before -which is still possible btw, but not said.

Regardless, the point is you said maybe Edo Tensei is based on a contract because it's a summon, whereas we know for a fact that Shiki Fuujin is based on a contract. Like I said before, who would the contract be with if that were the case? That's illogical.

I don't know, that's why I said that we know nothing about this jutsu, but where is your imagination suddenly?
A contract with a heaven guard to borrow some souls for the week end for example ^^

That's great. Try answering the question next time.

I did, you just can't handle to admit that you didn't know what you talked about.
The shinigami coming to take the soul are utterly common stuff for japanese, they're used to the death (:P) in many mangas, movies, books, etc.
You didn't know it, that's all and that's not big a deal.

Because these are people you have trained and put at least a shred of effort into, whereas two people on the street would probably be alot more worthless?

They were already considered as worthless, re-read what was the epitaph of Dosu by Kabuto...
Besides there is no indication that they were trained personally by Oro.
And in the end there is nothing to discuss about : they were used as sacrifice, so obviously Oro has no use for them anymore.
Zaku was armless and Kin wasn't even as useful as Sakura, he used them at their upmost utility : as corpses.

Uh, hello? Did you somehow miss when I said this?:

My bad, the way you say this I thought you meant to pick up already dead body, but if that so I don't understand what you mean, care to reformulate your point?

No, the dialogue is just as I explained it, unless you're using another translation. Instead of saying "Edo Tensei...so he used that to get us here." he says "Edo Tensei? So this kid summoned us with a kinjutsu?" With the 1st replying with "if that's the case..." as if he doesn't know for sure either. In any case they are certainly surprised, or at least impressed with what Oro has done ("what a guy")

I checked the anime and the manga and no, you just cut off the sentence of the 1st to make look like he's surprised or wonder what happens which is clearly wrong.
The 2nd merely said that it was the Edo Tensei and praised Orochimaru then the 1st just said 'if that's the case, Sarutobi, we must fight you', showing that he got the situation and knew that he should fight Sarutobi given that he was summoned.

No surprise at all about the jutsu itself.

Answered it? He said the same thing I was, that in a sense they are sorcerers, who always grow more powerful with age, which you never replied to.

That's just priceless

Originally Posted by raikage

How are these magicians different from the shinobi in Naruto? Probably the difference most relevant here is that all power must be generated from within the user, rather than pulled from an external source. Your effectiveness as a ninja in all aspects (nin, tai, gen) are directly correlated with your physical ability.

Yes, as you age your pure physical ability/potential will generally decrease. Hopefully we can at least agree on this. The question here, to me, seems to be 'can the loss in strength be offset by experience and training' which, of course, will vary from person to person. Personally I believe that the Sannin are not as strong as they were in their late 30's (due to their aging AND somewhat neglected skills in Tsunade and Jiraiya), but I can easily see why someone might claim that they are just as dangerous now as they ever were.

I find really funny your ability to read what you want to read and not what is written

I agree at 100% with what Raikage said about age btw.

Oro is extreme as a ninjutsu specialist? lol, and yondaime wasn't?

Not for what we know, he was probably more diversified like Jiraiya.

By incredible movement, I'm referring to Oro/Jiraiya when they were fighting on the giant snakes prior to the grand summonings
[anime pics]

Not only It's just anime filler but anyway there is no indication an a particulary incredible moves here.

Your point isn't necessarily in contradiction to mine, as I never said it was certain either. Like I already said before, the entire point was to bounce ideas around. :P

You sure make look like your point is certain, if not I wouldn't even have started this discussion to begin with given that there is no real fact about it and that it's just about beliefs.

lol? And just why doesn't Oro age? [Hint: Given time, he created a ninjutsu. Who would've thunk it?] As for Tsunade, you think the now basically 'indestructable' version would lose to the vulvernable one? Ohhhh kay.

So? We talk of the effect of age not of 'time without aging'.
And for Tsunade I already answered above why her new jutsu doesn't mean that she would win if she has overall weaker physical abilities after all these years out of shape.

Just curious, such as...? That is, someone who was declared the best of all time in whatever their particular field when they just started it. Besides, I said as a general rule, I can name plenty of more examples then the first two I mentioned, but give me a couple of yours.

I like how you try to change what I said with your stupid sentence in bold.
I said : right when they reach the peak in their field.
And so Scott Richter known as the spame king for example, or Serguei Bubka known since his youth until he was really old for an athlete as the beast pole vaulter ever, Schumacher for the F1 race, lol MJ as the King of the Pop when he was young maybe, Gaary Kasparov the Russian Bear of the check, or even Elvis Presley as The King, etc.

But anyway the title of Naruto aren't really like these one, it's more like the Tiger of Canton for example, a title given to fighter who showed incredibly strong capacities.

I would imagine 'knowing all jutsu' would be an aspect of being the 'god of the shinobi', not that being the 'god of the shinobi' was part of being the professor.

I don't think so, I think he was the strongest way before he gained the title of professor and learned all the jutsu of Konoha for example.
Actually I think that the title Professor also have to do with the fact that he raised the Sannin, and I think he was already the strongest at this point.