[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think the message itself might be a bad message to send. Constant (and at times major) failure is not good (or even acceptable) just because you admit to your failures. Constant occupational failure does not jive with loving your work, in my opinion. If you love your work, you naturally will want to become better at it (unless you're already good at it), and you will become better at it (if you're not good at it already). So if Hanasaku Iroha is aiming to have "loving your work" as a central idea then it logically should show people doing well at their work.

Enishi succeeding would flow better with the idea of “loving your work”, but only in the sense that it's the most similar to what's already been said. If they’re going to rehash the same message across multiple character arcs, they’ve at least got to give new angles on it and present it in a different light or do it in an entertaining manner. So in the context of the rest of the show, even if Enishi succeeded, it would’ve just said the same thing as Tomoe’s episode, just it would have been 2x longer and 100x less entertaining. At least going with the failure character development route let them say something a little different even if not everyone agrees it’s a good message.

In fact, I like more controversial messages better. I don’t mind watching shows with messages I disagree with as long as they present those messages in a novel, entertaining fashion.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, my point is simply that it's not always bad to take the predictable approach, be that with plot progression or character development. Now, I'll admit that it's ironic that I write that as I'm a person who tends to like plot twists, but even I would say that it's sometimes better to take the more tried, tested, and true route, even if it is predictable.

While I respect your viewpoint, I still strongly think that this episode (and 2-part arc) would have been a lot better if it had allowed Enishi (and Takako) to succeed.

I think it would have been much, much better for this anime to take the route of having Enishi and Takako succeed. We've already seen them fail (and in Enishi's case, take abuse for it). Seeing them succeed would be refreshingly different, and help to make them more likable characters, in my opinion.

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. This is probably a matter of personal taste. Perhaps my issue was that I don't care about Enishi's character enough to care whether he's actually competent at anything or not. So just making him like his job and be good at it isn't enough to make me really want to watch episodes centered around him. At least him losing gave them the chance to give a marginally more interesting angle on the ideas of maturity and loving your work.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Nobody gets "over" if they constantly lose. Any pro wrestler can tell you that.

Look, in real life, do people generally prefer it when the underdog wins, or do they prefer it when the underdog gets smashed down yet again? What's more enjoyable to watch? What leaves a better taste in your mouth?

Although I don’t particularly follow pro wrestling, I’d imagine the biggest failure for any wrestler would be if the audience didn’t even care whether they won or lost, and I think that’s just about where Enishi is in my book. I guess I'm too jaded to root for any pathetic character in anime just because their defining character traits are gutlessness and incompetence, but otherwise being a nice guy.

Some viewers (myself included) root for the favorites in sports when we respect the favorites as players much more than we respect the underdogs as players. To really win the hearts of the fans as an underdog, you need to somehow convince them you deserve to win as much as the favorites do.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I just don't see any positive purpose in having a character already established as a failure to be made to look like a failure yet again (in his own character arc no less!) Unless we viewers are simply supposed to laugh at him, and I don't get the impression that we are. Enishi isn't hugely likable, but he's just sympathetic enough that I can't bring myself to laugh at his misfortune. So the overall effect of having him fail again... well, you know that commercial about the Trix Rabbit never getting any trix, and the kids constantly saying "Silly rabbit! Trix is for kids!"?

Yeah, this episode had much the same impact on me as that chain of commercials does.

"Silly Enishi! The Inn is for your sister!"

It leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. It really does.

I don't care how well you execute kids constantly teasing a rabbit, and denying him the cereal he wants, it's still a fundamentally bad idea, in my view. At least when it comes to creating a story that people want to watch (as a marketing ploy for cereal, I couldn't say ).

When I was younger, I loved the Peanuts TV specials. And people still read the book reprints, and watch the movies, and watch the theatrical adaptations. This is a work that’s been described as “the great American un-success story,” since the world conspires to make Charlie Brown fail at everything, yet it’s a cultural icon.

People loved Charlie Brown, and were rooting for him to win all the time. It sure felt like he deserved to win. But I would bet you that if Charlie Brown won even half of time when he deserved to, they wouldn’t still be making TV specials 50 years after the first one came out. How’s that for a story people want to watch?

Spoiler for length, side points:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why? Enishi succeeding at making this movie deal would show the following:

1. Very good people skills (working with actors and movie producers over a long period of time)

2. Good managerial skills (having to balance work schedules so they don't conflict with the filming of the movie).

3. Enishi gradually developing competence and responsibility in having to overcome those hurdles.

And here's the key: These are things that I can already imagine Enishi pulling off, because he can (in his better moments) come off as nice and friendly (which gives him a good starting point when it comes to people skills).

Actually, having Enishi succeed at this movie deal would be the perfect way to develop his character towards competence and responsibility in a convincing fashion. It helps that Enishi is clearly into movies and movie-making a lot, so it would believably follow that he would succeed at something tied to one of his personal passions.

The audience wouldn't have to infer much of anything. Enishi saw a golden opportunity to utilize something that he's really into (i.e. movies) to help benefit the inn, and this naturally brought out the best in him. That was more or less my take on Enishi from Episode 16. It was plain as day to me. And I enjoyed Episode 16 a lot more than I did Episode 17.

Nothing better to change a person's outlook on life then to realize that there's a golden opportunity there that they can grab hold of. A golden opportunity that makes them more enthusiastic about life in general.

I could see that working out. What I was saying is that they'd have to actually show him doing all 3 of those things onscreen for me to be happy with that part of the execution. Sometimes I enjoy it when shows spell that sort of stuff out for me like I'm an idiot.

Even then, though, I still wouldn’t really care for Enishi even if he now has all three of those qualities. As he was presented earlier on in the series, they never set him up to become an interesting enough character to carry the spotlight. Yosuke and Yuina, for instance, were more fun to watch than Enishi and Takako.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

That's a strawman argument.

Nobody said that Enishi should suddenly succeed at everything.

Having him succeed with this big movie project is not having him succeed at everything.

Well, I guess it was meant more as hyperbolic language than a strawman, but the effect is the same sometimes. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: One thing I want to make clear here is that I don't think the situation is entirely unsalvageable. With the right plot twist, Enishi can still come out of it Ok. The question is if the anime will go that route, and if it will have time to go that route.

And this anime as a whole can still be very good, imo. It's had its share of episodes I didn't like, but it's had it shares of episodes I really liked too.

Agreed, a little faith in the author is good for us viewers sometimes. I hope we have a better perspective on this episode in a few weeks. The reason I like this series is that all of the characters other than Enishi and Tomoe are pretty fun to watch, so I think things will only go up from here.