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Old 2013-01-10, 19:11   Link #31619
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
A fair point, however:

*snip*
I'm not sure I would equate personality to ability.
Battler trying to solve the epitaph or to protect Beato or to act in a certain way with Dlanor must fit his personality but Battler being able to pull out all that successfully is tied to his ability and to calculate the amount of ability to do something is pretty hard to do.

(this of course doesn't keep in consideration the fact that the Japanese word used might include personality and ability).

All this to say: it's possible that deep down Battler has the ability to solve the epitaph (like theoretically any Japanese reader) but the problem is the stark difference between that Battler and the other in regard to how easily he does, a difference that even Battler marks as 'strange'.

In Ep 6, although smart enough to figure out the same answer as Erika in the quiz Battler doesn't reason it out as smoothly as he did with the epitaph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Also the fact that when MetaBattler 'awakens' in the ???-tea party, we lose his point of view that we were following for 5 games long and suddenly he knew about things like the golden truth. The same happened with his piece version, but for that one already at the beginning of the EP.
Did he really knew or merely tried to force his truth believing somehow it would make it due to some obscure reasoning/feeling/whatever?
After all he didn't know about the logic error and needed to be instructed about it by Genji.

But honestly the golden truth is so random and unexplained I really wouldn't try to base any reasoning on it.

Also, he had a golden sword. If red sword can use red truth it was pretty reasonable to assume golden sword uses gold truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
MetaBattler from EP3 and EP4 also accepted that it is a game, or possibly even that 1 of the people he knew really was a murderer. And because of that his arguments have become a lot better. However it was still far away from his chiru capabilities. Also he only had to fight to deny magic and witches, while much later on he had to find out what "really happened".
Meta Battler is still not completely aware of it being just a game as he goes angry because Beato has fun into killing the characters and complains about the method. He rants about Beato becoming a good witch or something like that.
In Ep 4 he will still try to put the blame on an extra person before surrendering on the idea there's no extra person and will search for pitfalls.

In Ep 5 he still feels pity for Natsuhi at the idea she's faking talking with Beato when she's alone. That Natsuhi is just a character, not the real Natsuhi. He also is afraid at the idea he might be the killer.

He surely has improved a lot and keeps on improving compared to Ep 1 & 2 but it's only in the end he seems to truly figure out the game as he claimed himself as the evil culprit, not shying away from the idea it implied his piece version killed his cousins and aunt in cold blood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Somone solved the epitaph and found the gold, but never revealed it. Either to have the gold to him-/herself, or, if for example Battler found it, to prevent the gold being used as a weapon by his family against the others as we saw it in EP5 (or even worse in EP7).
Because of that Piece'Beatrice' never found out about it and assumed that no one solved the epitaph yet.
The theory of someone solving the epitaph but not revealing it can barely work for Ep 3 (in the end someone handed the ring to Eva and it was Yasu who had the ring so Yasu should know Eva solved it... but let's assume she discovered this after she had killed everyone minus Eva)

But pieceBattler in Ep 5 found the gold and (apart from the cousins) everyone knew about it Yasu included as she handed him the ring and, what matter the most, Erika as well since this assure us that the scene in which the family saw the gold was reliable. At this point, if he had found the gold because he solved the epitaph, the murders should have stopped.

The murders continue instead ergo the epitaph wasn't solved.

It's this the core of the problem. We can discuss about the other details ab nauseam but regardless by them until someone doesn't come up with a satisfing answer on why in Ep 3 & 5 the murders continued when they were supposed to stop because the epitaph was solved and Yasu knew it I'm not going to believe Battler found the solution to the epitaph on his own in Ep 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Aye, in her case she said something only she could have known though.
I'm not questioning the fact that Natsuhi used red, I'm questioning your statement about Battler being allowed to use red only because he was told to repeat stuffs.
Repeating stuffs isn't a requisite to use red as Natsuhi and Battler successfully used red in Ep 4 & 5 without having to repeat anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Dlanor said that the golden truth can either be inferior or superior to the red truth.
The only way to be superior to Knox 8 in this particular case is having a clue. And yes i know that Dlanor countered it with Knox 2nd, probably because she knew which body Battler was talking about.
This is a theory.
Where would be the clue for the golden truth used by Beato the elder in Ep 6? Especially considering they knew it was a trick?

And which would be then the difference between a golden truth without proofs and a red truth without proofs?
or between a between a golden truth with proofs and a red truth with proofs?

The colour?

Why one is labelled as golden and the other isn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
All I can think of is Weekend at Bernie's.
LOL, that movie! And considering we're talking of a Kinzo wandering around and magic and rituals then we should also consider Weekend at Bernie's II.
Was there some music playing on Rokkenjima?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Who says that wasn't a mistake? After all in arc 5 he wasn't looking for a culprit.
He was trying to prove innocent someone who had everything pointing out to her being the culprit and was actually responsible for some amoral stuff going on. Yet out of nothing but faith, he wanted to prove her innocent.
And doing so, he solved everything.
To prove her innocence however he had to find the real culprit so, in the end, he looked for the real culprit. It had always been his goal to prove people he loved were innocent however when he saw Beato defending Natsuhi he understood the only way to win wasn't trying to prove Natsuhi was innocent but to offer another theory according to which someone else was a culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Furthermore your suggestion reminds me of the red:
Battler immediately figured out red was a weapon that the witch would only use as a way to attack us. It took him much longer to figure out it was also a source of clues.
We're very much in contrast to this, we constantly considered the red to be the "only reliable clues" and I still think some people haven't figured out (or accepted) that the red was, as Battler said right away, a weapon used to attack our reasoning.

We looked down on Battler and considered his reasoning to have grew up when he started to consider the red a source of hints, but that's actually exactly where he was led astray. Just like we've been.

Basically what I'm saying is that even tho we tend to look down on him and the story pushes that even further, I think it's likely Battler's "wild guesses" are very close to the mark most of the time.
I think red is a double edged sword as battler suggested in Ep 3.
It destroys some reasoning, that's for sure, but it also gives clues.
If we didn't get some confirmations any scene Battler didn't witness could be waved off as fantasy.
We could say Beatrice Castiglioni never existed, Kinzo stole the gold to... mafia guys then embellished his tale creating a mystery woman and ended up so enamoured with it he had a painter make a fake paint and in his last years of life even started believing his fantasy really happened.
The baby that fell from the cliff was a mere orphan.
Kuwadorian was Kinzo's secret harem filled with pretty blond women.
Knox actually isn't a rule on the gameboard and Rokkenjima is filled with people hiding in the forest.
And closed rooms were never closed room to begin with, not even for a moment.
Oh, and of course everyone was murdered by traps or committed suicide.

Red allows us to establish some things... if correctly used.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2013-01-10 at 19:24.
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