[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I understand what you mean to say, but that doesn't mean that I agree with it. Ranka from the first movie has significant characterization differences to Ranka from the series, enough to justify my change of opinion already at that point, before the second movie.

I agree that you don't have to agree with my words.

However, it doesn't change the fact that the actions and dialogue in the recycled footage was the same as the series, thus justifying my reason for saying "which movie." The first is a rewrite of the series, which rewrites the characters in the series with a new plot. The second is a complete rewrite altogether and should be seen as a standalone.

I prefer to see the first movie as a rewrite of the series and just that. The second movie, in my mind, comes close to being a Do You Remember Love, considering the timeline and the fact it could hold its own as a standalone.

But, hey, it's good that we both like all three main characters from the movies, right?

It's fine.

But no.
Sheryl: series verse
Ranka: movie & series verse
Alto: blend

Before you ramble about "how can I love Alto/Ranka and not like Alto" hear me out.

It's simple:
the Alto form the series was indecisive about everything. It wasn't just the romance but rather his choices towards the war. He was literally, by the point he could make a difference like those before him, duty bound. He was useless in my opinion. His character overall is nice, good background, but his path to becoming a grown up is bad. He remains indecisive about the love triangle all the way through (and hints won't prove your point here if he didn't say the actual words). He ultimately failed to show worth in the series until the very end, which is when he had what I'd call a "life-or-death experience" by being shot down by Brera.

But there are things I liked about his series persona. Disregarding all of the bad stuff, he really is a good character who had potential to actually be a nice hero for Frontier. His background is deep, his attitude is attractive, and even his piloting skills are unmatched (except by androids like Brera). He is very duty bound. That attracted me right away. He attaches himself to people when he has no actual attachment to them emotionally. For example: Ranka and Sheryl. In the beginning, there is no emotional attachment to either but he joins the S.M.S. for Ranka's sake. I felt then that his character really had a chance but the directors messed it up for him.

The Alto from the movie verse knew which side he was gonna be on. From the beginning of the second movie, he listens to Ranka and takes her words to heart, and so, in the battle, he cannot bring himself to shoot at the Vajra until Brera goats him into doing so. He made great choices in the war field and once again brought back up his "duty bound" self but it didn't become an entire part of his persona like in the series. Instead, it is part of him, but not a big part. His piloting skills still remain as sharp as ever.

However, there are also bad parts to him that pull me away. He's too open. His background is either forgotten or dropped, possibly even avoided. His personality has otherwise changed. He's not as gruff or rude anymore. He doesn't come off as a mysterious or otherwise interesting character but rather one who gets pulled with the flow. He is easily fooled by both romance and duty: for one, possibly falling for Sheryl, and for two, believing everyone (over her) that she is a spy.

But the one part I absolutely hate about the movie verse is how they put Alto romantically. He didn't actually have to choose, it was already done. By the hospital scene in movie two, Alto had already chosen Sheryl. It wasn't a shock to me because they were around each other 24/7 but also, Alto was so open and welcoming that he was like a freaking doormat. It's not only me who sees this but some AR fans have stated it. He is too wrapped up in Sheryl for a person he's just met. Whether it be believing she's a spy or actually viewing her as a friend/romantic interest, he's always around her. The two of them just clung to each other in the movie verse to the point where Alto felt the urge to quit when Sheryl was arrested. He also felt the urge to quit (but changed his mind) when she was considered dead.

The Alto from the series whom had all of his correct background, would not have been like that with Sheryl. Which makes his new character OOC to me.

So you see, I have a hard time saying whether I like Alto or not.

Hm, for me the part where I think of Sheryl from the series being more selfless is that she was mainly thinking of the good of the people of Frontier when she chose to sacrifice herself. What you identify as her selfish moments in the series are for really immaterial matters. Being clingy when she already knew that she was going to die is not something I find can be logically condemned.

Sheryl from the movie, OTOH, was a willing spy for Galaxy and, it seems to me, entertained serious thoughts about going along with Graces idea of harvesting Rankas organs. Even when she decided against that, it's selfish behaviour on totally another plane than trying to win the man she loves.

I beg to differ.

Sheryl was very selfish, especially in the beginning of the series. And I'll get into more detail about that in the Romance Thread later when I have more time.

I'll answer your one piece. It can be "logically condemned." It should. For one thing, you guys all use that whole scene as an excuse to justify her selflessness. Countless times you've all said "she feels guilty for making him stay with her out of duty." However, if she has to feel guilty, she's selfish. There is no deed in the world that isn't selfish in its own way. Even when she helps Ranka, it's selfish because she expects something in return, like even the girl's cooperation. In all reality, Sheryl is selfish.

However, her movie self was not. She chooses to be a spy for Galaxy for her own selfish reasons. The flashback with Alto and Grace's regards to him prove it. She's a spy infiltrating Frontier so she can get close to Alto, but not for what he stated in the first movie, rather out of romantic interest. And actually, Sheryl never showed that she wasn't going through with Grace's plans to harvest Ranka's organs. However, in the end, she decided against the plan after realizing their feelings were the same and they had become like sisters. At that time, she decided to tell Alto of what Grace was planning for Ranka when Brera showed up. That doesn't make her selfish but rather selfless. And when she pushes Ranka to Alto to save her rather than herself was another selfless move. And finally, choosing to sing to reach out to Alto and Ranka, as well as honor Grace's final wish, she does so, once again being selfless. She then sings just like the series, literally to death, to save Frontier; another selfless act.

Her series persona clashes dearly with her movie persona in this discussion. Her series self was selfish yes, but lacked selfless behaviors that would otherwise prove your point. I could give you a long list of times of which she was selfish in the series versus the selfless behavior. However, in the movie verse, that list would be opposite (in which more selfless than selfish). I think Thess already started on that role.

Banana would have needed a huge personality upgrade to be even a contender. As he was in the series, he basically was a wish-fullfillment bot for Ranka ( "Yay, I have a guy who does everything I tell him to do!" ), in the movies he never got so close to Ranka as to be even taken serious.

It would have to be a different story with differently written characters, which is always what a "what if" scenario boils down to.

Actually, no; no story changes. It can still stay the same.

Brera is a spy from Galaxy but Sheryl is not involved in the conspiracy. Her concert is how Alto and Ranka meet but she leaves afterward, meaning her earring never gets lost. Alto thus grows attached to Ranka and decides to join the S.M.S. to protect her. She grows attached to Alto. Then Brera shows up as a contender. However, his brother/sister complex for her would stop her from taking him seriously. In the end, it would be revealed that he's a spy and Galaxy is the enemy. Ranka still would've chosen to leave Frontier in order to better understand her past and the Vajra and left with Brera, however, her feelings for Alto would remain. Alto would rescue Ranka, return her feelings, and they'd both rescue Brera together.

So you see, the story stays similar (or actually the same) but the roles are changed. No one fills in Sheryl's role because there is no need for such.

In a love triangle between those three, Ranka would end up with Alto.

It's simply about the fact that given how Alto and Ranka reacted towards each other in the series, if the story wasn't to change and only the roles, then the same would apply in that changed universe. Brera and Ranka interactions would remain along the same lines of "big brother" in her eyes.

Originally Posted by Thess

When Galaxy tried to trick Ranka, emerging after their previous defeat: Sheryl immediately stopped her, even if that would mean her death sentence. It wasn't just she threw away her life for Ranka in that scene after when she pushed her, but she threw away a chance of a cure and her loyalty for her people to save Ranka's life before. This was a more exaggerated and melodramatic character arc, but it was a bit alike how she did in the end of the TV series, she lets Alto go to save Ranka and sings herself to near death until she's safe.

I noticed this too and often asked myself "why don't people notice how similar these scenes (in concept) are?" We've always called it "Michael's death scene" but rather this is similar to the scene in which Sheryl tells Alto to "save Ranka" and gives up her romantic feelings for Alto.

I like that post, Thess.

According to Kiss in the Galaxy, Brera will win. /is bricked

You are bricked.

For one, Kiss in the Galaxy doesn't validate your point. It's a Sheryl story. The question was "in a world where Sheryl is NOT a romantic element." In which case, she could enter the story and then leave. But she is not there as a permanent mark. And that is what magnus and I were referring to when we discussed the new triangle of Ranka, Alto, and Brera.

And ultimately, Alto wins.

I explained above in the post that magnus made.

Also bullshit. There is no clean division between "romance between two men and a woman" and "two women and a man". We have one single example of the first type of romance, true, but concluding that every other Macross romance will follow that example is a ludicrous assumption. And an insult to the creativity of the writers.

Sorry, Thess, but I agree with magnus on this.

For one, there are two female triangles thus far: Plus and 7.

Your theory on Plus is not justified. Isamu wasn't the "bad boy" type, rather Guld was (despite his standoffish behavior, he comes out that way as dark and mysterious). However, in my personal opinion, Myung's feelings for Isamu started before the mess, back in the past rather. And so we cannot justify Isamu was a "bad boy" type in the past without an exact show of proof.

However, 7 doesn't justify your words at all. Basara was not essentially the "bad guy" type, rather Gamlin was (for being a private military pilot is often exciting). Had Basara been the type to show off and say "I chased them away," your theory would've worked better. But he isn't. And Mylene still chooses him, they made that very clear.

So you have to ask yourself, Thess, are you talking about love triangles in Macross or in general because Macross has shown none of those theories you're giving out.