[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

I'm okay with this sort of time travel being used as a plot device as long as it's understood to be illogical. It's only when people say, "it's actually feasible if you look at it this way" that I have my objections.

I don't think anyone is arguing this stuff as feasible. "Logic" is a different story, as most good time travel fiction is based on some degree of logical progression. Granted, it's some twisted, abnormal logic, but is often internally consistent.

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

I haven't, but referencing fiction to support other fiction isn't really a sound argument anyway. And I'm not sure about the whole grandfather thing. It's twisting my mind too much for me to simply repeat my previous arguments; the only question that's entering my head now is, "Isn't existing before your own existence similar to being north of the North Pole?"

Forget I even mentioned fiction and argue the point instead of just dismissing it with a fallacious argument (should I reference reality to support fiction?) and a misquotation of my own words. I said "being able to exist before one's birth", not "one's existence". That is a huge distinction.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Mikuru's people WISH time is predestined. They are horrified at the possibility that it might not be, as what seemed like "freedom" to you is "total erasure" for those who live in the future.

That's why Mikuru has mental security that prevents her from leaking secrets. If time-line is fixed, there would be no point preventing her from altering time. Quite simply, if the future changed, everyone Mikuru knew back home will cease to BE.

Currently the Haruhi universe made it clear that outside of those with superpowers, everyone will make the choice that they will make. It is still their CHOICE to make them, just because the future results exist doesn't invalidate their choice. We are what we choose to be, and the future is whatever we make.

The only people who are screwed up and you should feel pity for are the people from the Future. They are obsessed with doing what they feel they had to do because of knowledge from the future. That is why Yuki locked herself out of reading the future; she knows she will make the same choices regardless of whether she know the end results or not, so why bother knowing the future at all?

Haruhi doesn't apply, of course. Nothing applies for Haruhi.

Thanks for explaining the fallacy of the whole free will versus predetermination argument. You saved me the trouble. ^_^ It's one of the more popular and stubborn arguments that when you get down to it, really is apples (intent) and oranges (results)...