[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm not really expecting Cagalli to even be let in on it but even so, that still doesn't excuse Orb from trying either.

How would she not know?

As for the treaty, that just seems like another plot hole. After what Orb has been through, it seems to place a rather bizarre amount of faith in such treaties being held up.

It's not a plot hole when we're talking about idealistic Cagalli.

Yeah, to be honest I think that's just another piece of evidence of how retarded they are, not that they knew they lost the element of surprise. My argument does have a basis. Like I said, they seemed pretty adamant it would end in a victory for them and that it would quickly end the war, hence why they called it Operation Peacemaker

Of course they knew. They just didn't care. Because not only do they want to end it quickly, they believe they can do it by using nuclear weapons. So again, MAD is never a factor here.

Again, if MAD isn't a factor then the Neutron Stampeder shouldn't be enough to make them resort to a completely different type of weapon never tried before, without even trying nuclear weapons again.

Why would they continue using a weapon that ZAFT has a perfect counter for?

In this point we were specifically assuming Orb has nuclear weapons and what would happen if they did. You were trying to make the point that even if Orb did have nuclear weapons, that wouldn't stop the EA from attacking. I'm going to go ahead and assume I've made my point clear. Your second point is already addressed above anyway.

Even then, my point about Boaz still stands. If the EA is willing to continue attacking ZAFT even when the EA knows that ZAFT also possesses the ability to use nuclear weapons AND after the EA has proven themselves willing to use nuclear weapons as well, then they won't have a problem attacking Orb even if Orb has nuclear weapons.

But either way, Orb doesn't have nuclear weapons, so that's that.

But none of that matters because ultimately just like how Orb learned EA will try and take things by force, they learnt they can win in the end and that their country can preserve.

Your assuming that's what their perspective would be in order to prove that's what their perspective is. That's circular logic. It does not logically follow that Orb would definitely adopt this attitude. Now it can reasonably happen but I don't think that perspective is at all credible. Sorry, but all that doesn't suddenly mean they become despairing idiots that no longer has a grip on foreign policy despite a history of being carefully attuned to it.. As I pointed out in our previous argument, it should actually make them even more stoic and militaristic. This is not the perspective Orb would believably take.

Remember what you said as your original point? You admitted that my perspective on Orb could be true but only if Orb had a reason to believe it could deter the EA. Now your saying they wouldn't come to the conclusion they could deter the EA because this perspective prevents them from doing so. It's circular logic.

I'm not assuming anything. The point about Orb not wanting to be invaded again was brought up in the show itself.

It is you who are assuming that Orb should believe that they have could deter the EA when their last experience with the EA clearly show they couldn't.

Make up your mind dude. Which one is it? Is the Berlin example about Orb or isn't it?

I don't know why it's so hard for you to get the connection. The Berlin example shows the EA's character. The EA's character is one reason why Orb would decide it might be better to join them rather than risk being invaded again.

Orb doesn't have to know about the Berlin example to know the EA's character, because they knew that from SEED. But the Berlin example is further demonstration to the audience of the EA's character.

Is this really so hard to understand?

I'm pretty sure they went to find out where Archangel was specifically, so they knew where Archangel might leave, not to confirm if Archangel was actually there or not.

They do it for both. To know where it is and to have proof that it is there.