AnimeSuki Forum - View Single Post - Beyond Moe: has anime really changed at all?

Sackett · 2011-11-26, 10:21

The perceived shift from plot-driven shows to character-driven shows? (from action/sci-fi/fantasy towards "slice-of-life"?)
The perceived shift from shows targeted at "all ages" to shows targeted at male 20-somethings (otaku)?
The perceived lack of substance in "modern shows" compared to their "classic" pedigree?
The perceived increase in quantity or popularity of shows you dislike vs. shows you like? (Or the perceived increase in certain elements within genres of shows you liked in the past?)
The perceived shift from mature-looking "adult" female characters to younger-looking "childish" ones (and the character qualities that correspond to that appearance)?
The perceived increase in the amount of sexually-suggestive (or explicit?) material (whether featuring younger-looking characters or not)?

This is a more interesting discussion then the debate over "moe". I like some "moe" but don't care for what I think of as "bad moe". Since I first started watching anime with Starblazers (Space Battleship Yamato) back in the eighties I think I've seen a lot of of these changes.

1: Personally I'm one of those people who prefer a show to have both plot and characterization. Still sometimes a show that focuses on one is interesting. It's not new for there to be character driven shows. Thought they tended to have some plot going on in the background. However, there does seem to have been a shift towards more "plot-less" shows. In the past a character driven show was something like Ranma 1/2. Yeah it's character driven, but there was a plot device driving things. A show with no plot at all might have existed before, but not anywhere the numbers today.

It's interesting to me that this seems to have started with Haruhi, a show that was both plot driven and character driven. Yet the character driven side is what got copied. It's not a bad thing to me. I like character driven shows. And slice-of-life can be calming and peaceful to watch. However, the increasing number of them, (with the inevitable decrease in execution quality), while the total number of anime shows decline, that can be very frustrating to someone who wants to watch shows with plot.

2: I think the shift towards (a specific subtype) otaku targeted shows is the main frustration. Not so much away from "all ages", although the lack of such shows frustrate me, I have to admit I don't think they were ever very common. The shift is away from shows that spoke to the entire human condition such as Starblazers (epic struggle to survive, nuclear war), Maison Ikkoku (grief and romance), Touch (more grief and romance with a bit of guilt thrown in), Evangelion (isolation and loneliness), even Ranma 1/2 addressed questions of morality and honor underneath all the slapstick.

It's similar to the frustration felt towards Mecha when Mecha targeted shows dominated anime. You always feel frustrated when yet another show comes out that is targeted towards some narrow fanbase, diverting resources away from shows you want to see. Additionally, I think the current "otaku" targeted shows are extremely insulting towards many anime fans. Really? All anime fans are hormonal teenage boys who think about nothing but girls and sex, yet are lonely shunned and 40 year-old virgins as well? At least Mecha implied we where all engineering and physics geeks.

3: This contributes to the complaints of the lack of substance. I don't think that poorly executed shows are any less common then they are now, but it one thing to watch a poorly executed show that lacks substance, but at least has the form that you like. It's another when a form that you don't like is dominating the anime world, and most of them are poorly executed shows without any substance as well.

4: Worse, unlike Mecha, these "otaku" appeals (ie what most moe critics think of as moe) can easily be inserted into otherwise enjoyable and interesting shows. It's so easy to slip in a swimsuit episode, or some other event that makes these appeals. When they fit with the actual show premise it's fine, but too often they are treated as breaks from the actual plot and an excuse to show off the girls like sex objects. Nothing happens that matters to anything, and the incident is never mentioned again. It's like someone put crap in your rice bowl, and tried to convince you it's chocolate sprinkles.

Worst of all is when you stumble onto a show premise that intrigues only to discover it's been mutated into an "bad moe" vehicle. Especially when you missed the warning signs:

"What? A show with anthropomorphic representations of WWII aces and their aircraft? Fighting aliens? Ha! This I got to check out. Wait... Why are they all girls? And why aren't they wearing any pants?! No! No! What did they do to my mental image of Chuck Yeager?! No! My eyes! My eyes! Unsee! Unsee!" (Paraphrased from a forum post I saw that warned me to stay away from Strike Witches).

Poor Chuck Yeager...

5: Well, at least he wasn't turned into a loli. I would say that the increasing fascination with the sexualization of young girls is disturbing. And the imouto (little sister) craze as well. Maybe this is because I have younger sisters, but the way these relationships are depicted are extremely disturbing to me.

Oh I don't mind a little innocent flirting- it's actually pretty normal for young girls to "practice" on their fathers and older brothers. But not in a sexual manner. I mean, I don't mind a close brother sister relationship, but not this thing of having the hots for each other. That's just not how a sibling relationship really is. And it's freaky. Big big turn off for me. And of course they stick it into about every show they can now.

6: Fanservice is a hard one to measure. On the one hand the amount of casual nudity dropped quite a bit. Compare Ranma 1/2 or even Evangelion to today. On the other hand fanservice over the last few years is getting ever more daring, without ever actually showing things (that's preserved for the Blu-ray now). It's like they're technical virgins or something, and it's a turn off. I think I'd prefer showing Ranma 1/2 to my mother then most of today's fanservice laded shows, even the TV censored version.

Fanservice has also gotten a lot more stupid then it used to be. I mean before it was usually something going on in the background (ie watch the first episode of Maison Ikkoku) or a natural part of the plot (Ranma 1/2). Now it's like: Panty Shot! Why? Because.... PANTIES!!!

Sum up: Insulting. Lazy. Gratuitous. Creepy. Inserted into shows I want to watch and would like to be able to show my girlfriend without her thinking I'm some kind of pervert.

2011-11-26, 10:21	Link #92
Sackett Cross Game - I need more Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma Age: 44	The perceived shift from plot-driven shows to character-driven shows? (from action/sci-fi/fantasy towards "slice-of-life"?) The perceived shift from shows targeted at "all ages" to shows targeted at male 20-somethings (otaku)? The perceived lack of substance in "modern shows" compared to their "classic" pedigree? The perceived increase in quantity or popularity of shows you dislike vs. shows you like? (Or the perceived increase in certain elements within genres of shows you liked in the past?) The perceived shift from mature-looking "adult" female characters to younger-looking "childish" ones (and the character qualities that correspond to that appearance)? The perceived increase in the amount of sexually-suggestive (or explicit?) material (whether featuring younger-looking characters or not)? This is a more interesting discussion then the debate over "moe". I like some "moe" but don't care for what I think of as "bad moe". Since I first started watching anime with *Starblazers* (Space Battleship Yamato) back in the eighties I think I've seen a lot of of these changes. 1: Personally I'm one of those people who prefer a show to have both plot and characterization. Still sometimes a show that focuses on one is interesting. It's not new for there to be character driven shows. Thought they tended to have some plot going on in the background. However, there does seem to have been a shift towards more "plot-less" shows. In the past a character driven show was something like *Ranma 1/2. Yeah it's character driven, but there was a plot device driving things. A show with no plot at all might have existed before, but not anywhere the numbers today. It's interesting to me that this seems to have started with Haruhi, a show that was both plot driven and character driven. Yet the character driven side is what got copied. It's not a bad thing to me. I like character driven shows. And slice-of-life can be calming and peaceful to watch. However, the increasing number of them, (with the inevitable decrease in execution quality), while the total number of anime shows decline, that can be very frustrating to someone who wants to watch shows with plot. 2: I think the shift towards (a specific subtype) otaku targeted shows is the main frustration. Not so much away from "all ages", although the lack of such shows frustrate me, I have to admit I don't think they were ever very common. The shift is away from shows that spoke to the entire human condition such as Starblazers* (epic struggle to survive, nuclear war), *Maison Ikkoku* (grief and romance), *Touch* (more grief and romance with a bit of guilt thrown in), *Evangelion* (isolation and loneliness), even *Ranma 1/2* addressed questions of morality and honor underneath all the slapstick. It's similar to the frustration felt towards Mecha when Mecha targeted shows dominated anime. You always feel frustrated when yet another show comes out that is targeted towards some narrow fanbase, diverting resources away from shows you want to see. Additionally, I think the current "otaku" targeted shows are extremely insulting towards many anime fans. Really? All anime fans are hormonal teenage boys who think about nothing but girls and sex, yet are lonely shunned and 40 year-old virgins as well? At least Mecha implied we where all engineering and physics geeks. 3: This contributes to the complaints of the lack of substance. I don't think that poorly executed shows are any less common then they are now, but it one thing to watch a poorly executed show that lacks substance, but at least has the form that you like. It's another when a form that you don't like is dominating the anime world, and most of them are poorly executed shows without any substance as well. 4: Worse, unlike Mecha, these "otaku" appeals (ie what most moe critics think of as moe) can easily be inserted into otherwise enjoyable and interesting shows. It's so easy to slip in a swimsuit episode, or some other event that makes these appeals. When they fit with the actual show premise it's fine, but too often they are treated as breaks from the actual plot and an excuse to show off the girls like sex objects. Nothing happens that matters to anything, and the incident is never mentioned again. It's like someone put crap in your rice bowl, and tried to convince you it's chocolate sprinkles. Worst of all is when you stumble onto a show premise that intrigues only to discover it's been mutated into an "bad moe" vehicle. Especially when you missed the warning signs: "What? A show with anthropomorphic representations of WWII aces and their aircraft? Fighting aliens? Ha! This I got to check out. Wait... Why are they all girls? And why aren't they wearing any pants?! No! No! What did they do to my mental image of Chuck Yeager?! No! My eyes! My eyes! Unsee! Unsee!" (Paraphrased from a forum post I saw that warned me to stay away from Strike Witches). Poor Chuck Yeager... 5: Well, at least he wasn't turned into a loli. I would say that the increasing fascination with the sexualization of young girls is disturbing. And the imouto (little sister) craze as well. Maybe this is because I have younger sisters, but the way these relationships are depicted are extremely disturbing to me. Oh I don't mind a little innocent flirting- it's actually pretty normal for young girls to "practice" on their fathers and older brothers. But not in a sexual manner. I mean, I don't mind a close brother sister relationship, but not this thing of having the hots for each other. That's just not how a sibling relationship really is. And it's freaky. Big big turn off for me. And of course they stick it into about every show they can now. 6: Fanservice is a hard one to measure. On the one hand the amount of casual nudity dropped quite a bit. Compare *Ranma 1/2* or even *Evangelion* to today. On the other hand fanservice over the last few years is getting ever more daring, without ever actually showing things (that's preserved for the Blu-ray now). It's like they're technical virgins or something, and it's a turn off. I think I'd prefer showing *Ranma 1/2* to my mother then most of today's fanservice laded shows, even the TV censored version. Fanservice has also gotten a lot more stupid then it used to be. I mean before it was usually something going on in the background (ie watch the first episode of Maison Ikkoku) or a natural part of the plot (Ranma 1/2). Now it's like: Panty Shot! Why? Because.... PANTIES!!! Sum up: Insulting. Lazy. Gratuitous. Creepy. Inserted into shows I want to watch and would like to be able to show my girlfriend without her thinking I'm some kind of pervert. __________________ Cross Game - A Story of Love, Life, Death - and Baseball. What more could you want? Last edited by Sackett; 2011-11-26 at 10:35.