[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Obviously, an explanation of Hanataro's experience with Rukia had to be given for his dialog to make any kind of sense . However, Orihime being able to instinctively read Ichigo (when they weren't particularly that close at the start of the series), makes just as much sense and Matsumoto being able instinctively "understand" Ichigo's need for all his friends. They only have this understanding because Kubo wrote it for them. Folks are willing to accept Orihime as a credible source, (at least when it comes to Ichigo's feelings about Rukia) but not Matsumoto?

How does inoue's initution, that has been shown to be dead on over and over again, make as much sense as Matusmoto pulling some explanation out of no where? She has no history, preamble or any sort of creditability indicating that we should think she is right in her assement. You seem to think that just because Kubo was the one that wrote the words that we should automatically accept that she is exactly right. Kubo has not made us do that before. He has always given us a reason to believe. In other cases, Inoue and Hanatro for example, he gave interactions and information. He showed Inoue's ability to read Ichigo. He showed the source of Hanatro's information. How is that the same as Matsumoto? She hasn’t been shown to know Ichigo, Inoue or Rukia. She hasn’t even been shown to be particularly insightful when it comes to relationship. So how are the situations similar? The situations aren't even close to comparable even if Kubo did write both scenes.

Can't speak for others, but I wasn't saying there was. Matsumoto's words are vague and as ShuMei said, are really neutral to any side of the romance argument.

I agree with this. There isn't any romantic undertones for either side. Ranigku was showing comfort.

It's a half-truth. What's true is that Ichigo does have a very strong instinct/will to fight and that he is driven to do battle. What was false is that Ichigo came to Hueco Mundo ONLY to fight. This was proven to be incorrect several times: by Nell and Orihime in chp 283, by Ichigo in 315 and by Orihime again in 317. Each of those chapters it was stated that everyone (including and especially Ichigo) came to HM to rescue Orihime.

GJ was misleading by trying to convince Ichigo that he cared for nothing but fighting, revenge and winning, but that was proven to be false. Ichigo has shown to be very much a protector.

By"alterior motive" I meant having a reason to intentionally mislead rather than simply making an error in judgment. Grimm and Ulq had clear reasons to mislead. And Ulq has admitted doing this several times. Matsumoto and Nell have no reason to do that and that is not part of the nature of their characters. This is what I meant when I said the intentions of the characters should be taken into consideration.

This arc was about trying to get Ichigo to look at himself and accept it. Grimm wasn’t trying to turn Ichigo into something he’s not. As for the ichigo reasons, I'm not saying Ichigo didn't want to save inoue. i'm saying its a matter of degree and that’s not really what was important in the HM Arc. In the HM arc, Ichigo's characterization had very little to do with Inoue and more to do with being about to accept his "instinctive" side and his desire for power.

I understood what you meant, and i'm saying that Grimm doesn't have a clear intention to mislead. Since when has Grimm been that subdue. He’s not. Its not part of his personality; Actually if truth be told it was Ichigo's that was misleading not Grimm. (He was misleading himself) Thats what the whole inner battle was about; and why Ichigo was finally able to be Grimm. It wasn't about Grimm trying to misdirect or mislead Ichigo into a certain path. Ichigo verifed this when he agreed with Grimm. Grimm didn't say anything about only coming here to fight. He was using those words to make ichigo realize who he was and therefore use his full power. It was a form of self actualization through acceptance of oneself.

It all comes down to what Kubo is trying to do with the dialog. Why would he have Matsumoto or Nell say wrong things simply to demonstrate that these characters don't know Ichigo well? What purpose would that serve? How does it advance the plot at all?

These aren't questions that we can answer. All we can do is take the dialogue and what we know about the characters and make our guess based on that. Nell's and Matsumoto's words could be complete and utter crap, a total lie, or completely off in left field. Who knows, but accepting words completely at face value when you reason to doubt seems silly to me. Maybe Kubo will make these words more believable; i don't know, but allowing two characters who know very little of Ichigo some huge insight into his way of thinking is sloppy. I don't think that Kubo is sloppy. As for the plot these words could still be wrong and used for any number of things.

As for what was actually said. I do think we have to believe what Nell and Rangiku said. I just feel that implications that can be drawn from the dialogue is very limited in scope for the exact reason we have been discussing.

As I said read the chapters again. Read where Ichigo states that his foremost duty is protect his friends, and how Orihime explains on two separate occasions how she realized everyone came to protect her. Ulq and Grimm's words are not verified by a long shot.

I will have to disagree. Grimms words were about acceptance not duty. Grimm said that Ichigo came to fight (he followed his instinct); Ichigo agreed with him did he not? Ulq's words were a simple observation in which Ichigo strongly implies are right. The verification came from Ichigo in both circumstances so I will disagree with you unless you think that Ichigo is lying or wrong. i suppose that could be true.