Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Spoiler for @ monster:
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Originally Posted by monster
Cagalli wouldn't allow her brother and Lacus to be bothered, especially for the purpose of Orb deploying nuclear weapons. Beside, NJC was supposed to be banned by the peace treaty.
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I'm not really expecting Cagalli to even be let in on it but even so, that still doesn't excuse Orb from trying either.
As for the treaty, that just seems like another plot hole. After what Orb has been through, it seems to place a rather bizarre amount of faith in such treaties being held up.
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That would be true if they had attacked all of PLANTs directly. The fact that they attacked Junius 7 and then Boaz first meant that they lost any element of surprise they might have had.
Your argument simply has no basis in the show. The EA simply no longer care about a possible MAD scenario the moment they decided that they wanted to annihilate the Coordinators and even used nuclear weapons to achieve that.
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Yeah, to be honest I think that's just another piece of evidence of how retarded they are, not that they knew they lost the element of surprise. My argument does have a basis. Like I said, they seemed pretty adamant it would end in a victory for them and that it would quickly end the war, hence why they called it Operation Peacemaker
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Of course, because the purpose was to annihilate the PLANTs. Hence, the nuclear weapons and then the Requiem.
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Again, if MAD isn't a factor then the Neutron Stampeder shouldn't be enough to make them resort to a completely different type of weapon never tried before, without even trying nuclear weapons again.
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Except Orb doesn't even have nuclear weapons. So, again, your argument simply has no basis.
And like I said, by attacking Boaz first, the PLANTs would also be ready.
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In this point we were specifically assuming Orb has nuclear weapons and what would happen if they did. You were trying to make the point that even if Orb did have nuclear weapons, that wouldn't stop the EA from attacking. I'm going to go ahead and assume I've made my point clear. Your second point is already addressed above anyway.
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Except Orb doesn't want to be invaded again in the first place. So saying it's alright because when the war ends Orb will be free again doesn't cut it.
They want a better outcome than what happened in SEED.
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But none of that matters because ultimately just like how Orb learned EA will try and take things by force, they learnt they can win in the end and that their country can preserve.
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The fact of the matter is none of that matters because what Orb saw was that their country was attacked and lost.
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Your assuming that's what their perspective would be in order to prove that's what their perspective is. That's circular logic. It does not logically follow that Orb would definitely adopt this attitude. Now it can reasonably happen but I don't think that perspective is at all credible. Sorry, but all that doesn't suddenly mean they become despairing idiots that no longer has a grip on foreign policy despite a history of being carefully attuned to it.. As I pointed out in our previous argument, it should actually make them even more stoic and militaristic. This is not the perspective Orb would believably take.
Remember what you said as your original point? You admitted that my perspective on Orb could be true but only if Orb had a reason to believe it could deter the EA. Now your saying they wouldn't come to the conclusion they could deter the EA because this perspective prevents them from doing so. It's circular logic.
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Let me put it this way:
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So the Berlin example is not about Orb. But it does further show the EA's character, and the EA's character is why Orb made it's decision.
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Make up your mind dude. Which one is it? Is the Berlin example about Orb or isn't it?
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Well, as you can see, they bothered going to Orb to find evidence of the Archangel being there, so it's still a gamble worth taking. The problem with the Seiran was that someone took a picture of them welcoming Djibril. So the lie in Destiny was easily debunked and so ZAFT proceeded to ignore Orb and attacked.
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I'm pretty sure they went to find out where Archangel was specifically, so they knew where Archangel might leave, not to confirm if Archangel was actually there or not.
Spoiler for @ Znozzy:
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Originally Posted by Znozzy
see, the cost for the EA was people, and a few grunts (which seems to be made out of a unlimited plot-number none of us know) and the benefit was a Mass driver, which they really needed, and Azrael wanted to try the Druggies out, so in the end, his druggies got some combat experience, and well, thats about it. i'm not trying to argue with you that the aftermath was good for the EA, but the economy and such has never been brought up in Seed, except the energy crisis.
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They never got that Mass Driver. It was destroyed.
And the fact that your pointing out more plot holes isn't going to make Orb's decision to join EA any less contrived. To me it just further shows that the the whole decision relies on you swallowing a lot of BS.
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of course he thought it was unfortunate, and it does make sense why he wouldnt regret it, since he didn't cause it.
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Hey you were the one who said he regretted it. When i said he didn't regret it, my point was that despite knowing what happened, he'd probably still do it again at that point (although of course he'd obviously try to limit the chaos but he'd still do it).
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See, thats where i think you are wrong, Zala/Rau's squad =/= the entire Zaft army, it is one squad, not the entire army. Even if Rau wished for a full-scale invasion of Zaft i highly doubt the high command would agree too it.
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I'm a bit lost on what you're trying to say. I agree that the high command would not agree to a full scale invasion.
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You said Orb detered Zaft when they clearly didn't in Destiny, and this entire conversation about Athrun's squad is regarding that incident that involved the AA, or what occurance are you refering to? because you are the one who said Orb detered Zaft back in Seed.
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They had the option of bringing the rest of Zaft? i must've missed it, could you refresh my memory and tell me what episode it is? (no pun intended)
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Like I said, in Episode 25 in SEED, Yzak and Athrun were arguing about whether to ignite a full scale conflict. At that point it's not just one ship any more. It clearly has the potential to be a whole lot more.
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Well, we have a excuse for that, it's called shitty writing trying to apply common sense to shitty writing doesnt make sense (Like Yuna's attitude jump, Cagalli's and Shinn's characters being turned into a trainwreck in Destiny
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So you admit it is out of character then? If it doesn't make sense and common sense doesn't apply and it's shitty writing, then I'd say it's very clearly out of character.
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Yeah,but as i said in a earlier post, Seed Orb isn't the same Orb as Destiny (which we've clearly all seen) Due to the Seirans.
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But why is that? Like I said, Destiny does not show us that the Seirans ought to have the effect you're implying they did. But they do anyway. To me that's making Orb act out of character.
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No. Athrun is still a regular red coat with the same rank as Yzak, he might have more knowledge regarding what is happening in the high council (but then again, the relationship he and his father had suggests otherwise) But he holds no political power on his own. If anything, his wedding with Lacus was more a political one to please the public.
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Athrun is definitely higher in command than Yzak. Yzak even specifically said it himself when Athrun shot down his argument "That's a cool headed approach. I guess that's why you're in command". Just because he wasn't in on everything his father was doing doesn't mean he wouldn't have the experience and upbringing that being the son of a the leader would give him. I never said he had to have political power. Just a better grasp on military affairs and perspective.
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I don't have any beef, but you flat out ignore certain parts of the show and take your own opinion/speculation as fact while disregarding things that the actual show state, even when being reminded by other forum members, as for your warning, if you can't hold a forum discussion without actually reading through what other people post and check up if your facts are right, the problem lies with you, not me, if anything, feel more than welcome to point out if im wrong by posting said episode number and i'll be more than happy to correct myself.
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You realise that everything you just said it something I could easily say to you right? So why aren't I? Because I'm sensible enough to realise it's not wise to come to conclusion about another person before the debate that determines whether you're right or not is finished.
And fyi, I have a much stronger reason to have a negative opinion about you. Can you guess why?
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