[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by FFTHEWINNER

-however,even though they were hypnotized,what they saw doesnt 100% match what we saw. why?because,when eva turned into endless eva,her clothes and looks completely changed.however,there was no reaction to the change in look and clothes.you'd think if rosa saw said change she'd panic. yet she was still not sure weather or not she was eva.

To be fair, she turned into Eva as a teenager. She might've been in shock.

-i recently learned something big that i didnt notice. in episode 2,battler actually saw the butterflies,met beatrice,and submitted to her BEFORE midnight!if you look at the times in the"choose the chapter"menu,you will see that this chapter starts at 11:30 and the next chapter,Banquet of the Witch,starts at 11:59.this is pretty interesting.as it quite supports what i believe. battler saw magic before midnight. that is undeniable(like i said before,the"he was drunk"card doesnt work,as both the game and he himself say that he was completely focused and not drunk at all). if we go by the traditional"before/after midnight"separation then this wouldnt make sense at all,as it confirms that magic happened before midnight. however,if we go by my"before/after witch's revival"explanation then no problem at all here. the witch was already revived as soon as the 8th twilight was finished. thus,there is no problem with having magic even before 12 because the witch is in full power now and nothing stops her.

Interesting, but he also 'gave up' at this point in time and believed the Witch. Is it possible this fact allowed him to lose his objectivity, and be 'hypnotized' or whatever?

i thank you for the explanation.however,i have to admit that i dont get your explanation,because for them to be"pieces"that beatrice can move as she wishes then they have to not be"humans". humans have their own will and decision making abilities. you can influence them,but you cant control them like you can with chess pieces.
same with game-battler,which aura explained simply has a "telekinetic link"with battler. each pf them can influence the feelings/thoughts of the other,but meta-battler cant simply control and order him. this is made abundantly clear in the last scene,as meta-battler is begging game-battler to go to the rose garden yet game-battler doesnt do anything.and even then,the only reason such telepathic link exists is because both are"battler",while beatrice doesnt have a"game beatrice"so she doesnt have a telepathic link with anyone. however,she can appear and influence them through a combination of reward promises,threatens,and hypnosis.

after all,if you can control someone the way you said then that someone is just a doll.just an npc that the computer controls. i find that very hard to accept considering everything.

Here's a possibility. Imagine that the 'Gameboard' is quite literally a game in a roleplaying game sense like Dungeons and Dragons; Beatrice, as the Gamemaster, controls everything except the players, who only control their own character, but neither side is allowed to 'break character'. So Meta-Beatrice can make Rosa decide to take Maria out to the rose garden to shut her up, but she can't make George call Shannon an ugly loser and push her in the mud (except in an illusion). Peice-Beatrice, however, doesn't have this power, so to cajole people into doing what they normally wouldn't, she needs to use bribes and threats and stuff.

Alternatively, Beatrice looks through the infinite universes and grabs the one where everyone does exactly what she wants them to for this particular story. Though how much of a difference is there?

you mean that "young eva"never even existed inside eva's brain?that she is 100% beatrice's creation?that would lead us into dangerous territory. after all,eva talked about having"young eva"inside her with hideoshi.while i certainly agree that magical scenes arent what really happened,that was a normal scene. thus,to deny that would mean that i would have to doubt and deny every scene that piece battler isnt in,which is like 80% of the game's scenes. i honestly cant do that. first of all,if i denied all that then the game would have way too many suspects that it is impossible to even guess who the real one is. no one that battler wasnt with would have an alibi after all,no matter what we saw them do. also,the game would simply not be fun for me any longer.thus,i cant doubt every scene that battler isnt in if it didnt have any magic in it.
however,an alternative explanation occurred to me that would solve this problem. you see,what if beato simply heard eva talk to her "imaginary younger self"alone,and simply made a visual representation of what this"younger self"looks like. that will solve all the problems

You're right, it would solve the problem if Beatrice did that. I'm just trying to bring up the possibility that Beatrice might lie to Battler about things that don't involve magic. For instance, lying about what people talk about to hide what's actually a culprit and an accomplice conspiring.

For the sake of argument, what if Shannon and George's cute little moonlight engagement scene still exists as such, but after giving her the ring, they're both like "Then we'll kill them all and finally be together, my love!"

In such a situation, there's still an emotional truth in the lie (George and Shannon want to be together no matter the challenges), but hides another truth.

actually,i just replayed that scene and the"suicide"stuff wasnt mentioned. in fact,the timeline that this discussion provided fits what i said.
-beato is summoned,a contract is made,and she gives kinzo the gold(which again,would require a magical operation that would simply not be possible if the mirror was still powerful).
-for a long while,kinzo uses the gold to rebuild the ushiromya fortunes.he wasnt in love with beatrice during that time,and thus no reason for her to not be able to go and come as she wants.
-after that long while,he falls in love with her
then she talks about the mirror and how she has been imprisoned in here for "decades"because of it. now:
-we know from another part that the mirror had lost most of its power and became incredibly weak,then kinzo,at some unspecified point,restrengthened it(and possibly modified its power to serve his goals)
-English has no"plural for two only"like other languages have. thus,"decades"could mean"2 decades",which is approximately how long current batrice has been imprisoned in rokkenjima.
-we know that the mirror originally was to prevent evil spirits from coming to the island and seal the ones already there so that they become powerless. again,if the mirror was working,and old beatrice was evil,then how was she even able to come to the island in the first place?and how was she able to use her magic from inside the island to summon the gold? either the mirror wasnt working or old beatrice wasnt an evil spirit but a good one and thus the mirror power didnt affect her.

Kinzo specifically summoning Beatrice under contract might have allowed her to show up and do the magic he specified for her to do. If he can restrengthen the mirror, he might be able to make temporary holes in its barrier.

who is"the reader"?is this some new character we arent introduced to yet?revealing new characters is spoilers you know

It's you. It's me.

n all seriousness,the reason i have a big problem with that explanation is that,in truly great stories,and i so far include umineko in that category,by the end of the story EVERYTHING makes sense within the story's rules. nothing isnt explainable by the end of the story.
now assume for the sake of the conversation that the end of umineko includes that no magic ever happened in any point of history in any world except the meta world. then you would have this scene unexplainable inside the story. why?because,as far as the characters and the story is concerned,there is no"reader". thus,nothing would be done with the sole purposed of tricking that which doesnt exist.
again,if this was a story whose goal is comedy or parody then 4th wall jokes fit. it is in the genre naturally and are funny when done well. but this is an extremely serious and gritty story with tons of drama and mystery. having 4th wall stuff in it simply kills the story because it isnt explainable from within. imagine watching Starwars and,after vader says"i am your father",he grabs luke and throws him towards the camera. luke hits the camera with his ass,says"ouch. hope it isnt damaged"and vader says"i am also the father of everyone watching us right now.hope you are enjoying the movie guys".how would you feel after that?that is exactly how i would feel if the only explanation for this scene was"she was pulling a trick on/trolling the reader"and there was no explanation within the rules of the story.

I can guarantee you that everything I said makes sense in the story's universe and rules, later.

on a side point,what do you mean by"Bernkastel and Lambdadelta exist on a higher layer of reality than Beatrice and Battler"?we clearly see them in the same layer with beatrice and(presumably)battler in the tea parties,so why would they be on a higher one?

PRetty much the same way Beatrice and Battler exist on a lower layer as well. Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are in a layer above Beatrice and Battler, playing their own game over who will win, with their own stakes. They are able to move downward and talk to them, however, or possibly invite people up for a while.

It's why they inhabit a darker, less real-seeming tea room than the one Battler and Beatrice play in.

well,it leaves me with tons of stuff that doesnt make sense. first is the point that i already explained.second is that we know that,in the meta world at least,it is undeniable that beatrice is a witch. thus,she must have learned witchcraft from"somebody". if virgilia wasnt a witch then who did beatrice learn from then?and why would she call virgilia"teacher-sama" in that case?

And if Virgilia taught her how to lie and trick people into thinking she was a witch? :P

In the Meta-World, she might be a witch purely because she says so. It seems to be a world where ideas are real.

I mean, Even BATTLER can teleport around, there.