[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by White Silver King

You're not listening to what me and some of the others are saying. Orochimaru used him to the full extent that Kishi has written for Hashirama at the time. Naruto is going through one of those DBZ phases Shonen's often progress too - in order to make bigger threats and bigger wins for the protagonist the powers of characters grow absurdly to the point that they barely make sense anymore. Had Kishi decided to keep Hiruzen alive, he too would have some of these ridiculous abilities as well instead of almost purely elemental ninjutsu that made up the vast majority of techniques back in that day. Back then a amazing Kekkei Genkai was Haku's ice element - it was simple and sensical (water + wind = ice) but because others were incapable of doing so it was really cool for us to see. But now we need things like turning your body into water and combining three elements to make up a new element that pretty much makes nuclear explosions - that makes no sense but it's cool for us to see, no one would be impressed by a simple ice jutsu now. This is what we're trying to say. Had the Orochimaru v Hiruzen fight taken place in Part II with what we know of Tobirama and Hashirama Hiruzen, I still would have ended the same way - with Orochimaru's arms dead, Hashirama and Tobirama defeated/sealed and Hiruzen dead because that is what Kishi wanted to write and the way it came out so of course his powers would have been heightened to an extent that it would be feasible for him to do so.

I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I'm trying to point out that it's wrong. kishi retconned ET in order to fix this power disparity mistake between madara and hashirama by having kabuto say that he perfected it thus he is able to get more out the ninja he is controlling than orochimaru did. also you can't assume people would be more powerful if they were still around as I stated before. there are plenty of examples of old characters being left in the dust by these 'more powerful' people. the title is who is the most powerful in their prime? not who would you like to make the most powerful in your own version of the story in your head.

Another example would be if the Pain v Naruto fight had occurred in Part I. Obviously, he wouldn't have wiped out Konoha and killed everyone because the manga would be over - Kishi would have written him to be either 1) MUCH weaker 2) MUCH more limited in what he could do or 3) both. The plot and what occurs in it can only stretch logic so far before we have to chaulk it up to the fact that this is a story written by a human being who's bound to not have planned every single detail of his story 10+ years into the future or changed his mind in that decade of time between the points in the story.

again you're just making up your own story in your head. you have to look at what actually happened. itachi had amaterasu and tsukiomi in part 1 and those are still formidable techs.

Gai (I know he's not a K11 but he and Lee are like the same person :P) can turn into Superman on fire

jeez.. there is so much to correct in what you are saying in this last paragraph I dont think I have time. the 8 gates were mentioned in part 1. we saw up to 5. obviously 6-8 would be better.

Shikamaru can now actually pull his shadow off the ground and use it as a weapon directly

his dad and then shikamaru himself did a similar tech in part 1 with the choke eluding to the fact that it could be manipulated

Hinata can make chakra demons on her hands, Ino's clan are basically Asian Professor X's. And that's just K11

i never said they didnt improve. you are not understanding my words. i said their progress is not comparable to these ultra powerful ninjas in the new 'flashy' naruto. their new moves dont stand up to anyone in the top tiers of power. they got left behind since they didnt have the innate ability and talent of ninja like naruto, nagato, sasuke, etc...