[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Raghar

Computer games are computer art, a mere binary data (stuff that has been made to be used on a computer, and can be used only on a computer). Selling something like that would be similar to second hand bread selling. Or by saying I acquired my driver licence cheaply because I obtained it second hand.

Producers might be robbers, and a lot of game developers are just normal people who, when presented with a hypothetical opportunity to earn more money, would scream money, but this second hand selling of a virtual item is the same as selling a snake oil. At least with a snake oil the person gets the oil of that poor snake and PETA wrath, with second hand sale the person would only encourages illegal selling.

Computer piracy at least would create some non obtrusive advertisement, and the game developer knows nobody was forced to pay money for his work. Second hand sales mimic behavior of shops that are selling real existing stuff, which takes volume, and which can be used without a computer.

This is somewhat the crux of the point. A game or movie is not an appliance, like say your toaster. It's something more like a ride at carnival. You never have ownership of the ride, just like you don't actually own the game or movie. Instead you hold a license to experience it. You can't ride a ride and then sell your ticket to someone else. That is in effect what happens with second hand sales.

Originally Posted by TigerII

If second hand sells for digital media is illegal, than so should flea markets, garage sales, etc.

I don't have the right to sell something I purchased, and someone else doesn't have the right to purchase something from me? It really is ridiculous how corporations have become. Look at Activision. Charging for a stat service, 20 bucks for maps.

I buy maybe two games a year and rent the rest I play. I just can't afford any other method. At the rate it is going, I won't be playing games much longer.

I'm not saying second hand sales are illegal. They are very legal, but asking the question "are they ethical?" You're not actually buying ownership of the game. You're buying a license to use it. It's more like a car rental. None of the value of a game is in it's physical structure, all the value is in it's design. The actual game itself probably cost less then a 3$ to package and ship.

Furthermore, as entertainment goes, games are probably one of the most economical out there. At release a game is 50-60$, but you can usually expect 20-60 hours gameplay from that. Compare that to a DVD which will be 20-30$ but only 3 hours entertainment at most. And that's not taking into account that after a year or two on release you can usually get buy new for 20-30. There's no reason financially not to buy the games you like new. Anime and movies, there's some reason there as the price is absurdly high for what you get.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Second hand sales: I sell my stuff because I no longer want or need it, usually at ridiculously cheap prices. Who wins from this: I do, because I get something for it, and the buyer does, because they also got something that would have otherwise ended up in the cupboard of oblivion, i.e. trash. Why should you encourage people to destroy things instead of passing them on to the people around them? It reminds me of large supermarket chains that throw away huge quantities of food instead of giving it to homeless people or selling it to the community at a much lower price.
In case you care about the original producers, think about how much money they make out of their business and how much they "lose" by not getting a part of what you collect when you sell second-hand stuff with an arbitrary example of mine. Toy Story 3 has grossed over a billion dollars so far, let's assume that 100,000 people sell the future DVD for 10$ each. That's 0.1%, not counting the DVD sales, yeah?

I don't have the figures, but the percentage of games sold that are second hand is much much higher then 0.1%. The only figure I could get from casual browsing is that 60% of $ spent on games is in new games bought from a store. That means 40% of game dollars goes towards things like online purchase, DLC, subscriptions and used game sales. I'd say for games used sales are probably in 10% range, but I'd appreciate anyone that could find published numbers. It's certainly big enough that companies are trying to do something about it. Notice how certain game now charge extra to gain standard stuff unless the copy is "new", an example being Mass Effect.

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

I'd disagree with the bolded part, and I can cite a source that mildly supports my position on it.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...nime-dvd-sales

For more anecdotal evidence, there are quite a few dvds sitting on my shelf that would not have been there if not for fansubs. I know I'm not alone in that.

The media companies are greedy, but I think a big part of it is they haven't figured out that a download is not a lost sale. The person likely wouldn't have bought it without downloading, and it is still possible they would buy it after. Same thing with second hand sales. People buying used games or movies are doing so because it's an older out of print title, or they want to save a few bucks rather than pay full price. Personally, I dislike buying used games, I'd rather pay the few dollars extra for a new copy, but that isn't always an option. The people who sell their used games are frequently consumers of the latest titles, selling their old games to subsidize their purchase of new titles, so making that illegal could actually hurt sales of new games.

Tell that to the music industry where Sales have been declining year on year for the past decade. Piracy does lead to lost sales. The faulty logic that media representatives use is that every illegal download is a lost sale. That's just wrong. Likewise DVD sales have also been decreasing for the last 4ish years. Now games are a growing industry, so it's not necessarily so visible if sales are being lost. That said, while the industry loses on a whole to Piracy, individual companies may not. So if your product is particularly niche, say Anime, then you might gain more from the increased exposure (as you say) then from the sales lost. But mainstream products will definetely lose sales, though it's difficult to say how much.

What you say about selling games to subsidize new purchases is relevant, and a few interviews I read said that factor made them hesitant to go after the practice entirely. That said, if this is Ebay, where most of the price is going to the original customer this is fine, but what about where a middle man like Gamestop is involved? In that case the game is often quite marked up, and consumer and industry combined are losing that markup to Gamestop, an entity that does not in fund the creation of new games.

However this argument may be moot in the future with the growth of online distribution. Resale of a digital product (say on steam) is impossible, as all games are registered to a specific account and aren't transferable (far as I'm aware...)