[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by rantuyetmai

I don't, because your comparison logic is wrong.

While I respect your opinion, I think that my comparison logic is fine. I'm now going to attempt to demonstrate why I think that my comparison logic is fine.

1. Homura is not judgmental.

I think that a person can reasonably interpret Homura as being judgmental. I don't personally interpret her that way, but truthfully, I don't interpret Sayaka as being particularly judgmental either. But for both girls, a defensible argument can be made that they're judgmental.

Homura is very quick to attack the intelligence and/or rationality of another person for not behaving the way that she would have them behave. There's a certain element of judging there.

Also, do you forget the end of Timeline 3? Homura was more or less wishing damnation on the entire world during that scene.

Now, I don't put much weight on that, because Homura was in a very bad place at the time just like Sayaka was in a very bad place during most if not all of her worst scenes. But the fact remains that lashing out at the entire world as Homura did at the end of Timeline 3 has a strong element of judging to it.

She called Madoka foolish because it hurts her to see Madoka being so selfless (which is one of the primary reason why she loved Madoka so much in the first place), not because she sincerely think so.

That's just your interpretation. With some validity, another viewer could conclude from Homura's words that she considers Madoka foolish for being selfless. You can consider a person foolish, and still love that person.

Again, this isn't my personal interpretation, but if one chooses to judge Homura as harshly as you judge Sayaka, the anime leaves enough room there to make such a harsh assessment of Homura's character.

Sayaka: Homura is a suspicious person ->

That's greatly downplaying the reasons Sayaka has for distrusting Homura and/or thinking her to be a delinquent. Please read my reply to DarkWing here.

Key excerpt below...


This is what Sayaka has seen of Homura so far:

1. Homura comes into class, acts coldly and strangely, and later makes very ominous and bizarre statements to Madoka.

2. Homura tries to kill a sentient life form, seemingly unprovoked.

3. Even after Homura tried to kill her friend (Kyubey), Mami tries to act diplomatically towards Homura, offering to share a grief seed with Homura as a symbolic gesture of offering the olive branch. Homura literally throws it back in Mami's face.

4. Through all of this, Homura is pretty much ignoring Sayaka, and barely acknowledges that Sayaka even exists.


Even at this point, why exactly should Sayaka think that Homura is anything but a very bad seed? Why should Sayaka attempt to be diplomatic with Homura, when Mami attempting exactly that went nowhere? And Sayaka's meetings with Homura only gets worse from here.

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There's being judgmental, and then there's simply being realistic when assessing the character of another individual.

You see, you and I have the benefit of being at least somewhat genre savvy. We know that "dark magical girls" like Homura can rarely be assessed at a surface level. In other words, we know that they tend to have compelling reasons for doing what they do, even when what they do and say may seem bizarre and inexplicable and/or rude at a surface level.

But Sayaka doesn't have that benefit. Ironically, Sayaka may never have watched a magical girl anime in her life. So when Homura acts inexplicably, violently, and rudely, all Sayaka sees is... Homura acting inexplicably, violently, and rudely.

I daresay that most real life people in Sayaka's shoes, and of her age, would have likely come to more or less the same conclusions about Homura that Sayaka did. I think most such people would have perceived Homura as quite dangerous, possibly even insane.

she must be evil ->

I don't think Sayaka perceived Homura as outright evil, necessarily. Just inexplicable and dangerous.

Keep in mind that Madoka was also a bit afraid of Homura, at first.

that must be why she didn't save Mami ->

Keep in mind here that Sayaka did not know that Mami had tied up Homura. This was a bad oversight on Madoka's part, as Madoka should have told Sayaka about that afterwards. Since Madoka didn't tell Sayaka that, Sayaka sees Homura arriving right after Mami is killed by Charlotte, with no reason given to explain Homura's peculiar timing, and Homura going on to defeat Charlotte and capture a grief seed.

You have to admit, to someone who didn't know that Mami had Homura tied up, it looks very suspicious (especially given the impression Homura had been giving off up until that point).

she opposed to "good MG" like Mami thus she must be "bad MG" like Kyouko ->

As for Kyouko, the girl basically threatened to break all four limbs of the guy Sayaka is infatuated with, while she had earlier threatened to kill Sayaka to Sayaka's own face!

Look, actions speak louder than words, but words do matter. When someone says things that we tend to associate with the harshest and most vicious of criminals, it's simply self-defense for a person to react strongly to such words.

Frankly, I don't blame Sayaka whatsoever for viewing Kyouko as a "bad MG".

didn't accept GS from her because it's dirty reward.

Sayaka was suicidal (or thought she wanted to die). Hence she was intentionally avoiding GS because she wanted to push herself to death. She was in a very bad place. She tried to hide those suicidal sentiments behind a front of being a noble Puella Magi because she didn't want to admit to her weakness.

It's all very pitiable, in my view, and certainly not a reason to hate Sayaka. My heart went out to Sayaka here.

2. Homura stubbornly fought for her wish, but she did not lose sight of everything else.

Let's be frank here. She prioritized Madoka well above the other magical girls. She didn't try anywhere near as hard to save Mami, or Sayaka, or Kyouko, as she tried to save Madoka.

To tell you the truth, if I was her I'd have kidnapped Madoka away and not give a damn anymore. Yet Homura doesn't only want Madoka for herself, she wanted Madoka to live, not alive, but live happily - thus come the demand to save the city.

What does saving the city have to do with that? Homura wants to stop Walpurgis Night simply so Madoka won't feel compelled to become a Puella Magi in order to do so herself.

An argument can be made that if Homura had wanted Madoka to live happily she would have tired harder to save Sayaka, as Sayaka is very important to Madoka.

Sayaka: she must be evil, she must be evil, she must be evil, (wait, she just saved you two from Charlot-) SHE MUST BE EVIL! (oh geez, she even retrieved your SG back for you too...) SHE IS STILL EVIL!

Did Sayaka even find that out? That it was Homura that retrieved her Soul Gem?

Also, did Homura "save Madoka and Sayaka from Charlotte" or did Homura simply arrive before they'd turn into puella magis to defend themselves as Homura didn't want added Puella Magi competition for grief seeds (which would be an interpretation that Sayaka could reasonably make and would be completely in line with what Mami had told her)?

Sayaka: true heroes don't need reward, I'm not using any GS, I'm not using any GS, (wait, you are exhausted, you may die, who is going to protect innocent lives after you fal-) I'M NOT USING ANY GS! Why should I care about protecting people after I die? (wow, talk about short-lived ideal)

As I argued before, Sayaka became suicidal after she determined that the guy she was infatuated with was almost certainly lost to her (or so Sayaka thought). It's hardly out of the ordinary for a teenage girl in love to do, say, and think crazy things due to unrequited love and heartbreak.

Sayaka: I want to be a hero, I want to save people no matter what the price is, I don't have time to think what is it they need to be saved the most though. I won't have regret! (see further explanation in point 3).

Honestly, I don't even know what you're trying to get at here.

3. "She was willing to sacrifice her own well-being for Madoka's sake". As in, Madoka's life. Nothing wrong with wanting to die if that means you can save the life of someone you love.

And that's precisely the same thing that Sayaka wanted to do for Kamijou. She wanted to save his life from ruination, as he saw it. The guy was devastated - absolutely devastated - over not being able to pursue his musical talents.

Sayaka (ep 12): I still decide to sacrifice my life because he will have HIS ARM back.

Yes? And your point? Without his arm healed, he can't pursue his dream in life. He can't perform beautiful music for potentially countless people.

You do realize that Sayaka might have just rescued the next Beethoven or Bach for the betterment of humanity as a whole, correct?

Are you really going to crap on such a selfless sacrifice that could bring so much great music to the ears of so many? I mean, really?

And is not something I can control, much like love.

Maybe not. But if you deconstruct the basis of your hate (as I'm attempting to do in this post), then that may cause the emotion of hate to go away.

To make it clear, I don't hate selfless people who are over-idealistic. I hate judgmental martyr-wannabe who is drown in pride

I guess you don't hate Sayaka then, because that doesn't describe her at all.

Sayaka was hardly a person "drowned in pride". If anything, she was too insecure about her sense of self-worth.

who choose magic to deal with problems.

Um, Madoka ultimately choose magic to deal with the overarching problem of the Puella Magi system.

For dramatic measure:

• Out of the 7 Cardinal deadly sins, Sayaka committed the most serious one: Pride.
• Out of the 4 Confucianism deadly sins, Sayaka commited the heaviest one: Filial.

I totally disagree with you. I see no evidence of Sayaka being atypically prideful.

And yes, Sayaka's characteristics felt nasty to me.

Then you're judging them too harshly, in my view.