[Joe_fh]

Originally Posted by Haak

She was just happy that she finally got it. I mean she spent years of depression over not having an ability. And after all, they all have to start somewhere.

Point is she didn't want it to help people at that point. She was just being slefish - every person is at some point. Still I'm not saying it's wrong to be selfish since that's not really possible but she decided to to something stupid dangerous and didn't even consider the consequences which is wrong.

Also from a completely different point of view the fact that she tries to help might not be because she is a good hearted person but because she is a level 0 and the only way to show she is capable of doing something is by helping others. It sounds logical and is as likely as everything else.

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm really not sure how living alone and coming at an early age can somehow make her manage to come to terms with things.

My point was that by living alone all this time she should be more mature for a person her age. This has more to do with the decision she made.
And my other point was that by living in AC for all this time and being a level 0 all this time should have helped her come in terms with the fact she is a level 0. Even if that feeling isn't completely gone she should still have moved forward.

Originally Posted by Haak

She probably did, too, but like I said being around Kuroko and Misaka only made things worse for her, rather than better. Misaka said it herself that Saten was actually trying to talk to her about it and Misaka herself admitted that she didn't think she could help.

We can't be sure since we haven't seen her before. She was sort of dpressed in episode one when she just met Misaka. Either way I believe that having people to talk to (in this case mostly Uiharu since she is in a similar situation and has been in it for quite some time as well) would halp you move forrward. You have to admit that when she actually talked to Uiharu on the phone in this episode it really helped her. But coudln't she do it before using the LU? Of course she could and Uiharu would have said the same thing to her yet she didn't for some reason and made that inconsiderate stupid and dangerous decision instead.

Originally Posted by Haak

I think the way Saten talked about it as if it was something painful, suggests that we were meant to look at it from her POV rather than as more background. She thought she was going to die and right in the middle of a conversation with Uihara she starts thinking about her. I just think it's too important to consider as just background info. Misaka clearly condsidered it important.

Background character infromation helps build a character thus it's important for character development. So I do believe it was that kind of information. It was there to give us a better understanding of Saten's character.
And saying mommy while you're scared isn't really something strange that needs further explanation.

Originally Posted by Haak

I think she must have had a reason for believing she was defective. If I'm not mistaken, in Index, that pink haired sensei explained about the oddities of Level Zero and said it herself that they were an odd case that go against all the theory. Even Misaka recongised that there is a case of "Levels mean everything". Perhaps Misaka could've been wrong but I think that bit was the authors attempt at trying to explain Saten's character though Misaka. It's not like he hasn't done it before.

Well it all depends on the point of view and the person since we've seen many points of view on levels in AC. Mine is that it shouldn't but every person has one. That however again doesn't jsutify what she did which is the whole point of all this. As I said I felt sympathy towards Saten for being a level 0 and having her dreams shatered as a fellow human being but not for what she did.

Originally Posted by Cyrus17

Btw guys did you remember that argument from the 5th ep. thread about whether Kuroko can teleport people by holding to their clothes or not? Here is the answer:

Yes I noticed that as well so I guess I was wrong in my asumption. Or maybe she coudln't at that time? Who knows? Fact is she didn't otherwise we wouldn't have had that sort of character development. Oh and in episode 9 she also teleported people by touching their clothes^^

Originally Posted by Ansalem

You can't separate all the things you've said. You have said that she deserves to have fallen into a coma. A child deserve that? For taking level uppers? You can't just avoid your words.

How am I avoiding them when I just repeated what I said earlier? A person stupid enough to do something dangerous because he doesn't think about what might happen deserve what's coming to them. In her case she also didn't consider the impact her actions would have on her friends. The more dangerous the thing you ignored the dire the consequences.
Id doesn't mean I don't want her to get better. I just don't feel sorry for her because she screwed up big time and involved the people around her.

Originally Posted by Ansalem

Again, not being drugs (or medicine) does not create the inherent potential for more danger.

Do you really not understand the thing I said or you just don't want to understand it?

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I know you weren't the person who brought up the term, but you defended it. In any case, there is still no way that a reasonable person would expect LU to cause all users to fall into a coma. There is nothing for her to add up. It's a new substance, that seems to work in a similar way to the process they induce powers in the first place, and she's heard there may be side effects. You make it sound as though there's pile of dubious evidence. Sure, it may not be the best idea. It seems shady. But it's a well known urban legend, with seemingly wide underground usage. A reasonable person would not expect that substance to cause a coma for all users. There's really not much more on this point.

Again with the coma.
Yes no one would expect they might end up in a coma because that's a specific side effect that can be known only after seeing the result of using the LU.
What if it wasn't a come what if it was cancer, or a stroke or paralysis or hundreds of other outcomes of messing around with a person's brain. Again it's your brain how is tamepring with it in an uknown way safe? How can a reasonable person consider this safe?
How is it similar when you have no information on how it works who made it and what happened to the people who use. The only information you have on users is a theory by a person in Judjement based on the facts they have at the moment.
Not to mention you found the thing in a hidden link on the internet which puts it's credibility below shady.
And ignoring all these things seems reasonable to you?

Originally Posted by Ansalem

I addressed all your points. Reasonable people do try new things. She did not hear any solid information, even if it was from a Judgment. The entire city that they live in is based on the idea of messing with their brains in novel ways. That's why it's reasonable.

And I already said what kind of new things reasonable people try. Reasonable people take reasonable risks when trying new things.
Messing with their brains by official scientists in a safe and tested way. How is the LU similar to this?

Originally Posted by Ansalem

The problem here is you are trying to think of reasonable to do = a good idea/something with absolutely no problems. That's not what this is about. It's about whether the outcome would be predictable by a normal person. Which it's not.

I didn't say there are no problems. I said he thinks about what the problems might be and he makes his decisions based on the pros and cons. It's common sense that if the cons out-weight the pros by far it is not a reasonable risk to take. Which seems to be the case here.
As I said above (yet again) this specific outcome isn't predictable because it's too specific but there are even more dangerous possible outcomes of using the LU

Originally Posted by Ansalem

She made a mistake. There are no laws against this. The main issue here is that is the immense ridiculousness and callousness of someone saying that a middle school girl using a new unknown substance with her friends deserves to fall into a coma. Good grief.

No the main issue here is that her actions are not jutified at all. You are missing the whole point of the discussion at hand.
If she is stupid enough to use an uknown substance in the first place. That migh lead to absolutely all kinds of outcomes.

Yes maybe I am a bit callous and that's probably because she is a fictional character and I don't like to see fictional characters which in a sense promote acting like an idiot adn saying it's ok. I'm baffled by the fact that some people see her actions as reasonable and justifiable.

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

This is funny. Your definition of reasonable fits closer to most people's definition of wise. Thinking things through, planning ahead, weighing the consequences of your actions; these are all signs of a wise person and things that children are not expected to do. These are things that even most adults struggle with.

I didn't mention planning ahead though^^ But yes I believe thinking about the pros and cons of your actions when it comes to something like this is "reasonable" . That's why I said we probably have a different definition of reasonable in the first place. Though I thik the definition of reasonable has to do with having sound judgment which you can't have if you don't think about what you're doing.
Well different people have different definition bu as I said again and again using something made by god know who that you have no information about and it messes with your brain in an unknown way to give you super powers does not seem reasonable to me at all.

Originally Posted by DJ Trouble

I don't think anyone would expect to fall into a coma from listening to music though. That's really stupid.

I already said why it's dangerous and what the side effecst might be considering what is needed to give a person esper powers and that is tamper with the brain in some way.
Tampering with the brain = can potentionally have really dangerous side effects.
Or at least this seems logical. Note I'm not talking about the coma but the dangers of meddling with the brain which might lead to things even worse than a coma.
You and Shinji talked more about this but I think covers most of the points you made about this.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Ooh, anything that alters one's body in any manner must be shady and dangerous, right? Your fragile conception and compulsive fear of the human body and what a sound file can do to it has no basis in reality. Given the setting, how would something that grants a person superpowers presumably work? In a similar way as the officially sanctioned process, right? And you don't see normal users falling into comas left and right. The presumption that level upper is inherently dangerous is equivalent to saying that powers are inherently dangerous. That is antithetical to the very existance of academy city.

I believe that if something alters your body/mind in any way and you have no idea who made, how it works and what are the dangers of using it you should probably reconside using it.
Look at this way - the only way to gain a power is to tamper with the body/mind.
This means that the only way for the LU to level you up is to mess with your mind/body.
You have no idea what this might cause (explained in my first point) unlike the official way since it has been tested and it is safe. That doesn't mean the LU works in the same way thus it's alos safe. The LU just tampers with the brain in some unknown way. The fact that Kuroko was surprised by it being a music file shows that it works in a completely different way than the official "power giving" method in AC.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I thought I'd stated pretty clearly that the comas aren't an effect of the level upper. At the very least, they aren't an effect of the level upping part of the leverl upper, which doesn't even function as it might be presumed to anyway. The argument that 'level upper must have dangerous side effects!' (lol at your random subject change) is completely dismantled.

Really? If by using the LU you go into a coma how is that not a side effect?
I don't want to spoil anything about the LU at this point so I can't say what's a side effect, what is the main purpose of it and how it actually works but it doesn't change the fact that the people that use a LU go into a coma.
About the part "why it must have dangeous side effects" see above. You are using your meta-knowledge of how the LU actually work to dismiss the health risk but none of the characters in the anime knew what and how the LU really worked.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Again, you're misunderstanding Saten's fear to be based on health and well-being. Projecting your personal revulsion over anything that tampers with the delicate functioning of the human body. And using your meta-knowledge of a coma that in fact results from unrelated and unpredictable causes to justify that fear. When in fact, Saten had no certainty over the reality of 'side effects', no conception of their severity, and really quite reasonably believed that nothing as bad as completely non-functioning comas could possibly occur.

I mentioned the potential health risks that come with using the LU and they should be the most logical from what she knew at the time.
The fact that her fear was apperantly not based on that simply showed that she didn't even consider them in the first place when in fact they seem pretty obvious even if they are only potentionally there. Of course it might not cause any harm but it also might kill you by causing your brain to go haywire. There' no way to know that for sure. Not considering tham doesn't mean they are not there in the first place.
Also she did ignore the theory Kuroko made about the LU users having a tendecy to commit crimes which was based on the facts they had at that time thus making quite the sound theory at that point. Since she is the one investigating this her oppinion has enough credibility on it's own.
She didn't consider the health risks and she didn't even consider anything Kuroko told her. What if she turned violent and started trying to kill people like the bomber guy? She would have gone to jail and forever having to bare theconsequences that followed plus the scar of hurting her firends (in this case mostly Uiharu) and betraying them for the rest of her life because she didn't think about how dangerous and inconsiderate her actions were.

It's not a question about law-abiding at all - it's about considering the dangers and the consequences of your actions to you and to those that you care about.

Sorry for not adressing all your points but those were the ones that caught my eye plus you're actually talking to Shinji and not me in the first place.

How's this for a wall of text