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Old 2011-03-01, 10:20   Link #22106
haguruma
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I would just say that if one truly believes the sole purpose of a justice system is socially-mandated vengeance and retribution, one has an incredibly immature (but regrettably incredibly common) view of what justice is and why it is virtuous to pursue it.
I would really love to hear a defintion of justice that is not based on subjective constructs of good and evil in the context of a certain societies equality system.

If you can give me that, maybe I'll change my opinion, but for me the justice system only serves one purpose and that is to create a space in which there is an equal relation between every action that is taken. The chain of "Action<>Consequence" is reinacted for the public in order to convince them that something like social order, equality and safety actually exist...when in reality it just reconstructs them retroactively until the next irregularity disrupts the system.
And what better way to convince people of the existence of order than to single out elements of chaos and punish them.

We have to have something like that, because without it chaos would probably truly break out...but in the end the system works through the fear of punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
In the end there is absolutely no positive representation of those who search the truth.

And who denies that? But why are you ignoring the fact that you reach this ending simply by choosing to state a completely harmless truth? As if "deny magic choose truth = becoming a paronoid killer".
Symbolism and Metaphors are not for you, aren't they?!
Ryűkishi just chose a scene that would minimalize the whole problem of Ange's dilemma to one question and that is, wether to look at the hard facts (Beato was holding it in her other hand all the time) to be able to believe in something beyond mere visual evidence (Beato gave it her all to present Ange with something good).
The whole choice wasn't about choosing truth or illusion, neither is it about facing the facts or denial, it is about embracing love despite truth or abandoning love because of truth. It's a choice wether or not you can still love somebody even though you know they did horrible things.

Ange never admitted to be wrong, she just admitted that her way to search for HER truth, that is the 'truth' that Eva killed everybody, brought her nothing but despair.
Just like Battler blindly saught for the 'truth' that there was an additional person Beatrice on the island, who killed his relatives.

Quote:
In Umineko the existence of a single truth is acknowledged, what isn't acknowledged is the importance of that single truth.
Because it isn't important to those people whom it concerns.
We can think it's wrong for them to do so, but it is still their right to do that.
Ange decides to love her family and let them live in her heart despite the (probable) single truth that they all murdered each other in cold blood over money.
What astonishes me is how so many people here can outright refuse this approach, when it is something that probably any of us has done or will do in his or her life. Subjective truth is important to the individual, because if we were to believe in only one single and cold truth, the red truth so to say, we would stop being human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Yeah Ryukishi really messed up when he said alternate worlds could exist in the catbox early on. [...] They can only find the one true history of the world they exist in if it exists. If there is an alternate history it is therefore evident that there is also an alternate catbox.
I think at some points there was also some mess-up on both sides.
Ryűkishi's terminology is a bit off at some points (mashing Braun-tubes, cat-boxes, multiple universes and all that together into one big mess) but some people seem to have taken it the wrong way what the actual point was.

Of course there is only one true history for a singular timeline. The catbox in this case is the point of uncertainty, where technically all universes cross and any possibility can be inserted.
The problem is that, once the future is known/it exists, there is a set of given rules the content of the box has to follow once it is opened. In the case of the Rokkenjima catbox that is:
  • Only Eva is known to have returned from Rokkenjima
  • Ange only has Eva
  • Eva has a vast ammount of money
  • Rokkenjima's center has been destroyed
  • Two bottle-letters arrived telling the story
The list goes on of course, but those are important things that the content of the catbox, concerning that particular 1998, must be synchronized with.

That is why Bernkastel can create the truth that Ushiromiya Lion must still die at the end of Episode 7. From the perspective of that 1998 there cannot be a happy ending where everybody left the island and the typhoon passed without any tragedy.
How that coherency with the future is reached is basically irrelevant as long as all the events happened that can be observed from 1998. Of course it could be that everybody held a happy party and then a natural desaster struck...but then there must be a coherent explanation why Eva was in Kuwadorian, why the bottle letters describe such horrific events, why Battler was washed on the shore of Niijima with amnesia.

Inside the catbox, disconnected from past and future, every possible universe can of course exist, but it's probability of existence is different depending on it's relation to past and present.
The content of Episode 7 has a probability that is close to, if not just 0.
The content of Episode 1, 2 has a relatively low probabilty unless you can find a way in which Eva faked her death.
The content of Episode 3 has a high probability in context with the future, but is lowered again due to it's incoherency with the past (e.g. why would Eva kill George or Hideyoshi?).
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