[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by Urei

Well, I agree that armaments wise there is little difference between the Prototype and the actual Mass Production model. It's understandable that the production model has side armament Packs unlike the prototype so no surprise there. Still, it is very important to notice this thrust increase. Considering it's adaptation to space and the quality of space environment it is a great improvement. Atmospheric wise the fighters 'could' perform the same I assume, though we can't diss the space modification. In that area YF model could be better.

And well, we can argue about weapons vs. maneuverability/speed. I'd say no amount of weapons will do any good if the target is able to dodge all of them with superior turning ability. That's how I see the Production model to the Prototype.

The YF-19 and YF-21 ultimately could both move faster than was safe for the pilots, but from what I could see the shape-changing wing and the vector-thrusting that was a legacy of the Queadlunn-Rau design the YF-21 was based on made a huge difference with regards to the manueverability of the YF-21. VF-19's faster, but the VF-22 dives and climbs harder, and seems to turn better even if it has less overall thrust, and so can (especially with the larger number of micromissiles we saw Guld use) box a target in to kill it faster.

Originally Posted by Urei

Considering it's adaptation into the U.N. Spacey it was second line to begin with. It may have not been used as such because of the fact that exchanging all of the fleets Fighters takes time. Having been given a new, improved to the Thunderbolt unit the fleet naturally assigns it as an elite unit even if it's meant to be replaced soon with a better fighter.

That's the most probable outcome imo. aside from the better spec wise to the Thunderbolt aspect of VF-17 there is nothing first line about it. It was meant to be replaced so it was not the core of the military.

Not a core, but still it was used with the elites, and Gamlin along with Diamond Force ended up flying the buggers as the VF-19's and VF-22's were only starting to come into service at this point (2045, or about five years after the ATF competitions which resulted in the final decision. Not a bad pace compared to real-life procurement processes. And you'll note that the VF-11 Thunderbolt was still considered a mainline fighter, as the VF-171 is in the 'current' (2059) timeframe.

Originally Posted by Urei

I'd say that one ton of mass more with less thrust force is a VERY bad feature to have on your fighter. Especially if that mass increase is as much as 1/8 of the plane.

Verniers or not, moving a 1 ton of mass more and accelerating it with a far lesser engine into maneuvers comparable to YF-19 is somewhat, impossible. This is an irregularity that I see in 22's design. Even if it has it's flexible wings the gravity is an omnipresent force. There is no escaping this fact.

However, it it's engines output and, ack, vernier output is released into a different level with releasing those limiters then it 'could' be possible to pull something similar or greater then VF-19. Then again, if it costs the machine or the pilot it's useless.

Gravity is an insignificant force in space combat unless you're close to a planet's gravity well, and the deforming wings were supposed to help it in-atmosphere. The rear-facing canard just above the cockpit would've reduced the VF-19's maximum speed in atmosphere somewhat (which may be reflected in the stats that show it having a significant drop in speed compared to space) as it did with the VF-11. The biggest advantage for the VF-22/YF-21 based on how it heavily borrowed elements from the Queadlunn-Rau and other Zentradi power armor was that it was MUCH more maneuverable in space, and could literally turn on a dime while packing a lot of missiles.

In atmosphere, it could do very well... but at the same time the VF-19 did have an edge due to the way its wings and canard were set up, from what I could tell, and Isamu pushed it to its very limits.

Originally Posted by Urei

Speed is an extremely important issue in every dogfight. It's more of an issue in a Macross air combat. Speed that comes out of the Weight-to-Thrust ratio is one aspect of this stat. Acceleration, deceleration and turning ability is determined by that statistic. As I said above. I simply can't see how 22 can pull anything close to 19 with it's specs unless it releases it's limiters. It is possible it come close by using those wings. This statement is solely based in it's specs not on what we saw in the anime.

Speed's important for catching up with a target - but maneuverability comes heavily into play, and the VF-22 system seems to excel with that due to its thrusters and everything else it stole from the Zentradi designs. Of course, considering who founded General Galaxy, 'stole' is probably the wrong term to use with them. Speed is really important in intercept and pursuit missions where you have to catch up with or just catch a target - it lets you pull into range faster to fight. With BARCAP and FORCAP roles, it's less important than being able to maneuver and just latch onto the enemy craft... which Bowman and later Max and Millia managed to do very well with these superior craft.

Of course, we're going well into the Mecha thread discussion territory, so you're right - best to stop here.

Originally Posted by Urei

That certainly is true. Only an Ace can go to the limit of a machines performance and take it even further. This takes us back to my previous post that was seemingly forgotten by the users of this forum. Ozma pilots VF-25S and as we all know the S Variation has improvements all over the frame, as well as fine tuned engine that boosts the performance. I wonder just how much better the S version is over the standard F. We don't have any solid info right now unfortunately.

It's also good to see that Alto managed to get a hit on Ozma's Full Armor VF-25S with VF-171EX.


PS. This thread starts to resemble the Macross Mecha Discussion Thread. I think it would be better to move all of this into the rightfull place.

As for the VF-25S, the stats we have so far to compare with the VF-25F don't show any real difference performance-wise between the two, although historically pilots with squadron leader mecha tended to have better performance and maintenance done on the vehicles. Whether this was due to it being the squadron leader's mecha, or the squadron leaders historically being the best pilots (thus being able to pull more out of the mecha) is the question. The main thing that amazed Alto was that the Super pack, which was designed for extra performance in space combat, was not giving him an automatic edge over Ozma with the 'heavy Armored pack' that added four beam guns (on the shoulders), all those extra micromissile launchers, a radar unit for them, and extra armor plating on what would become the torso and arms and legs of the mecha (also containing micromissiles).

Of course, Alto slowly catches up with Ozma... but usually only when he's truly pissed off, or a friend's in danger. At that point the gloves come off and he apparently becomes an insane instinctive pilot with good reflexes. You'd almost think he has Zentradi blood in him...