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2010-09-10, 10:29   Link #1009
Kaijo
Banned

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
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 Originally Posted by arkhangelsk Huge difference. Let's try formula. Assume the Resistance of a Tank is 1, and it can be destroyed with a HEAT round with a Power of 1 and Penetration efficiency vs armor of 1 (so 1x1). A HE round is less efficient, so say an efficiency of 0.1. So, if it has to destroy the same tank, it'll need a Power of 10 (10x0.1=1).
Truly you have a dizzying intellect. But I'll play along for the moment, because you've basically admitted a flaw in your plan.

A HEAT round needs a power of 1 to destroy a tank.
An HE round needs a power of 10 to destroy a tank.

Thus, the HE round has a larger destructive capacity, ie, it will make a bigger boom. Place a bomb next to a concrete block the same size as you, and then stand next to the bomb. When it blows up, odds are the block will fare better than you. In order to make the mariage's words true, the blast would have to be big enough to take out the block, so it would need to be much bigger, ie, more powerful. And any such blast that could take out a concrete block, wouldn't leave much of you left over.

The real problem is exactly what Jimmy said; you're speculating. You're making up things in order to make your pet theory work. You're taking things and trying to jam them around your pre-conceived notion. That's not how science works. You take what we know and use that to form the most likely answer.

What the mariage fired can destroy a tank. That requires a fairly large explosion. Any such explosion that would consume a heavily armored target like a tank, would completely vaporize any smaller unarmored target.

That's what we call facts.

Also, you're forgetting that Earth has nothing like the mariage, so even trying to guess a maximum or minimum for its power level is a fool's errand. They are clearly more highly advanced than anything we have, so it's highly likely that they could compensate easily for any recoil or size of shell via any number of advanced methods. Since it's audio only, we can't say.

So again, trying to cram the mariage into your little box is a fool's errand.

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 Since we are dealing with magic's effects on our physical world, YES.
Since you like formula, solve 4x + 5y +6z + 7. Here's a hint: you can't, because there are unknown variables. Since magic doesn't follow physical rules, the only way to formulate any theories is to observe what it does in practice. And given that we are discovering new ways to use magic and new properties or effects all the time, it's almost impossible to sa

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 Actually, there are 5. You waved 2 more away under the broad, unspecific, unfalsifiable banner of invisible magic, and the last you again tried to rewrite the scenario given. Remember?
I was referring to just Vita and Nanoha as they are the only ones of note, but you're the expert on rewriting each situation. I assume one of those other situations you're referring to is Rein's BJ getting cut by the flapping of an insect's wing. You want science, eh? It's scientifically impossible for the flap of an insect's wing to cut Rein's clothing. If it was, then her clothing would dissolve the moment she made any kind of movement.

So, how do you rationalize this away again?

But you're still being disingenuous by not acknowledging the unified theory. Everytime a BJ was destroyed by a non-magic attack, it was either due to the target being weakened in some manner already, or a more powerful attack than the target.

That one explanation covers everything. Whereas you continue to want to see the BJ/AB as something so incredibly weak, it'll break and fall apart when someone moves, despite the fact that it's managed to save the lives of numerous mages who have taken kinetic impacts. As was pointed out, Nanoha and Fate smashing into buildings. If an insect's wing can rip a BJ, then there is no way they should have been able to survive those impacts. Even older Nanoha shouldn't have survived being slammed into several walls by Vivio.

Your love of physics says that's impossible.

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 Kaijo's problem is that he wants to assume the Miriage was at least talking about a medium tank, even when the observations don't pan out.
Actually, I only said a medium tank to average the difference as a concession to you. Personally, when she said "tank" I assume any tank, from light to heavy. Doesn't matter, because the explosion from her HE round would have been strong enough to take out any of them. Now, it might have just done enough damage to a heavy tank to render it immobile and ruin the weaponry, but that's sufficient for a kill. Still, such an explosion that would do that, would pretty much render tear apart a light tank.

And any explosion that could do that to tanks, would render any normal humanoid-sized figure into mush. At the least, it would strip Subaru naked by burning away her paper mache BJ (if we go by your theory that it's fairly weak). Even if it's non-flammable, the sheer force of the blast would tear it to shreds.

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 Your theory is based on allowing your fantasies to override the actual results.
As much as I hate saying this, that would be you. You're the one who has a contradiction problem. Since the BJ is so weak, any explosion that could take out even a light tank, should have left Subaru naked. The fact that we have a picture of her not naked, and her BJ still mostly intact, speaks otherwise. You have a problem.

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 The ability to destroy an object in real life is not determined solely by the ratio of its mass vs the projectile. It includes the toughness of the target (including resistance to stress and heat), the amount of explosion actually absorbed ... etc. In fact, a lighter target may have the advantage in survivability because it is easier to blow away, thus dispersing the force of the blast than something that can't move.
But the mass IS a factor. You can't dismiss that. To get an idea of the forces involved, let's take a look at an F-4 crashing into a concrete wall. The wall represents our tank, and the F-4 gives us our explosion. No figure out humanoid sized could withstand that impact.

The problem with all your intellectual masturbation over possible shell size, cannon size, etc. is that we're still dealing with a very advanced piece of technology: the mariage. Your figures really aren't relevant because they can easily have access to shells of the same size, but greater destructive power. So even a 15mm cannon can pack more explosive force than our Earth weapons., thus you really need to stop trying to show off how much you know about Earth military technology, because the analogies don't hold. The only thing we know is that a mariage could take out a tank with an HE shell fired by turning it's arm into a howitzer.

The alternate explanation you are trying to avoid, is that it means the mariage has access to higher technology than Earth, and thus Earth weapons and a mariage's weapons aren't comparable at all.

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 BTW, real disingenuity is to continue to allow your GUESSES about what the Miriage is saying to override the reality fed into your face.
This is real amusing to everyone else here, because we can all see that you are guessing. You can't compare to magic or the advanced tech of a mariage. Those are two big unknown variables in your equation, and thus you can't solve it using Earth weapons.

The reality is that Subaru's BJ survived an HE shot that the technological-advanced weapon of destruction calculated could take out a technological-advanced Belkan tank. No amount of speculation or twisting of reality by you will override that fact.

But we will continue to derive enjoyment from watching you try. So please, keep at it. We're having a lot of fun with this. =)