[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Xander

Perhaps, though it should be noted that Taniguchi said Nightmare of Nunnally ...It feels like we're missing information the characters already have and, for that matter, the lack of mecha also has a lasting impact. Instead of military action, we have hand-to-hand combat and supernatural powers that mostly have physical as opposed to mental effects. In terms of overall feel, there have been far more changes than just putting a Lelouch clone in the background. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

I agree, Taniguichi is expanding the official Code Geass universe in a plethora of ways via this new manga.
Why remains to be seen.

I believe G-Saviour was a live-action disaster that didn't involve Tomino, as far as we actually know, and G Gundam came before Gundam Wing (and, for all the hate G apparently received because of its radical changes, the model kits and figures still sold).

Actually you're correct.
Tomino voiced his displeasure over G-Saviour at animeexpo 2002.
I was thinking of V Gundam, sorry about that.

F-91 mostly suffered from only being a movie instead of a new series. It packs too much story in too little time and the pacing is horrible..

Which was unfortunate, because F91, V Gundam, and Crossbone Gundam were an indirectly connected sub-series of the UC universe that I liked quite a bit.

I was mostly talking about things like manga and novels, since this discussion started with Renya of the Darkness after all and the point was that Sunrise isn't obliged to take Taniguchi's current manga story into consideration. They are free to take the animated universe in a completely separate direction.

Oh, again my apologies I hadn't realized you were only talking about the manga and novels.
In that case I agree that Sunrise absolutely has not only the authority, but as you said, no obligation to consider Renya canon if they chose not to.

It's also worth adding that ZZ didn't have Char or Amuro play any particular role...Char's Counterattack was also left open to interpretation but Sunrise didn't exactly go out of its way to pick up where that ended and never came up with an excuse to bring Amuro and Char back.."

There was no need for Char or Amuro to play a major role in ZZ, the fans were aware that both were still alive and active in that universe. They were only mentioned a few times in ZZ (if memory serves, been awhile since I've seen it).
ZZ set the stage for Char's counterattack in many ways with the bolstering of Axis' forces into their becoming Neo-Zeon, the various new mecha, and the whole political situation in the post-Titan UC world.

I imagine Akito of the Ruined country will have a similar purpose in explaining what was happening in Europe during the S1/R2 time period.

In fact, they could have adapted Gaia Gear into anime and Sunrise would have a Tomino-authored Char clone, in the strictest possible sense, running around.

It's a pity they didn't.

By the way, online polls have little or no scientific value due to sampling bias and because they're the easiest to rig.

Marketing isn't exactly a science when it comes to fictional stories.
There's no formula that does or doesn't work.
It's more of an art and damn difficult at times.
That said, the reason online polls do have value in a limited scope is that they tell a marketing agent if (and how much) interest there is in a particular angle of a story.
Especially when considerable time has elapsed since the last installment of a series (such as Geass).
However, I'd like to say that you've got me thinking that a cunning marketing staff would save a sequel with Lelouch in it for the proverbial "money shot" moment.

If anything, I'd even give those ridiculous character rankings in Japanese magazines a little more weight, if only so much, and even then Lelouch has lost a lot of positions lately. Hell, even Kira from Gundam SEED has had a lot more staying power. Not that this makes me feel very happy or anything but Lelouch's popularity hasn't remained unchanged, much less increased, as time goes on.

I would agree that a keen marketing agent would also take these into consideration, as well as what is being said about the franchise/product online on the major websites for the merchandice in question.

Sunrise is divided into multiple studios and can certainly handle working on several projects at the same time...

I was speaking of cross-competition between the Geass and Gundam franchises.
Oversaturation of mecha anime in too close a proximity (especially in the economic turmoil of 2008) may have done more damage than good.
I can see why Sunrise would hold off on an actual LoTR sequel until after Gundam 00, and Unicorn were done.

Strictly speaking, I believe all they need to do in order to bring Lelouch back is use any of several possible interpretations of the so-called "Code theory" and thus the retcon shouldn't require much more than a couple of flashbacks to events we never saw in the first place.

Considering the goal of any story is to bring out emotion in the reader/viewer, it would behoove Sunrise (should they choose to bring back Lelouch) to savor the "return" moment at the climax of emotional anxiety.
Just having a few informational flashbacks or "Code-theory" explanations is certainly an option for them.
However, the maximum emotional impact of the "money shot" moment is what the director and writer will want to gain the greatest effect on the viewer.
I would think that would require some backstory to properly support, but then again I could be wrong.

Regarding whether or not a sequel to R2 would have done well, we can't really tell but at the very least it's hard to deny that Lelouch's popularity was at its highest right after the ending. Wouldn't it follow that all those fans wishing to see their hero come back would jump at the opportunity to watch Code Geass R3 a year or two after the fact?

Many factors of the 2008-2009 period were in play.
From Gundam 00 to the economic crisis.
Whether or not Sunrise had plans for a sequel is not known, however, Okouchi did imply that he had been approached about it.
Unfortunately we don't know by who.
If I had to guess I'd say it was Sunrise producer Yoshitaka Kawaguchi, but I'll be the first to admit that I don't know.

I would argue that it's been long enough to reduce the passion and numbers of Lelouch's most desperate and irrational followers, who I would say are the people most likely to actively refuse to watch anything unrelated to him. Time cures all things, or so they say.

That's possible, but then again so is the opposite.
Lelouch fans are still all over the place online (some just posted here recently), and while his fanbase may have dimished or perhaps moved on, they may simply be waiting for more Geass with Lelouch in it.
There's no scientific way to tell.

I don't think Code Geass fans and Lelouch fans in general, taken as a whole, are as allergic to other alternatives as you want to suggest. They are, after all, watching lots of different series which do not involve their hero in any way, shape or form.

Allergic...no.
Disappointed, yes.
The enthusiasm and emotional drive to buy/watch Geass will not be there IMHO.
It would be like reading Batman comics without Batman in it.
Some people would certainly buy it and check it out, but overall the numbers would not meet previous sales.

Considering just how ridiculously popular and profitable both seasons were...even if you only brought back a fraction -say, half or just a third- of those fans, that would still guarantee DVD and BD sales in excess of 10,000 to 20,000 per volume to say the least, which is far more than what the vast majority of anime can ever hope to achieve.

If a new Code Geass anime does not meet or exceed the original series, or even just R2 (which was considerably less than S1), then it's a failure from a business standpoint since the franchise ought to be able to perform equally well.
R2 was telling at how quickly Geass DVD sales went from #1 in August down off the top ten in a matter of only a few weeks (by October).
I HOPE Akito can beat that and it's first volume can at least stay in the top 10 for six months.
Now that I look back on the DVD sales numbers for R2, I'm actually kinda shocked Sunrise is even making this Gaiden.

Just something between you and me. The sum could even be purely symbolic or waived altogether if necessary. Whatever makes you feel better. The intention is to have fun at the expense of the uncertain, not to make a profit. Which is quite ironic in this situation.

It is ironic.
Tell you what, if you win (and they make a sequel without Lelouch in it that is as popular as R2) I'll send you a signed copy of my novel for free (if you live in the continental USA).
If I win, all you have to do is admit it here in this thread and we'll call it even.
If no sequel is made at all, we'll call it a draw, and get a good laugh out of it.
That way we can't be accused of gambling or any such nonsense.
Deal?

What Sunrise is doing right now wouldn't really be the same thing as "starting over" since it's quite explicitly being called a side story.

A side story, like the name suggests, is meant to add something to an already existing story. That isn't taking anything away from Code Geass or Lelouch as they currently stand. In fact, a side story often uses what has already been done as a base and may include explicit or implicit references to what has come before.

Compared to, say, Renya of the Darkness, Code Geass Gaiden should look, feel and sound a lot more familiar. It'll still have more elements in common with Code Geass than with any other project. It will be using an already established universe and similar production values including character designs (CLAMP, Takahiro Kimura), music (Kotaro Nakagawa and Hitomi) and/or even famous voice actors too. We may even see a few familiar faces, sooner or later, but that's particularly hard to determine at the moment.

On this we agree, and I am certain Lelouch (most likely as Zero) will make at least one cameo in it.

We can't assume that the entire existing Code Geass fanbase, without any divisions or nuances at all, will refuse to watch the show only because Lelouch isn't going to the central focus when so many other things will remain similar enough. It's also a bit absurd to assume they will never buy any merchandise or DVDs and BDs. And finally, that says nothing about what new fans may be attracted to the show for multiple reasons, both superficial and otherwise, just like it happens with anything else.

I can agree with that in part.
So long as the story is a side story or secondary story surrounding the events while Lelouch is alive (much like ZZ Gundam) fans might accept it.
I'll amend what I said since you bring up a good point.
Therefore, in amendment, I'll stake the claim that a direct sequel will fail without Lelouch, unless we're talking twenty+ years into the future since that's like a whole new story a la Gundam Unicorn or F91.
Sunrise could attempt that course of action, it would be hit-or-miss in my opinion, but done right, it could be pulled off.

A series with those elements and characteristics, even from just a technical standpoint, isn't exactly likely to be unpopular. It can be less successful than Code Geass originally was but still make a reasonable profit. There is far more room for possible variations here than what you're apparently suggesting, as if we could only expect to see absolute success (with Lelouch) or absolute failure (without him).

Again, a direct sequel without Lelouch is not going to be received well unless it is totally amazing, and I don't see that happening.

Let's stop to take a careful look at the details here.

First off all, until recently Gundam series have generally been produced in sets of 50 episodes or so,. They weren't divided into seasons in the strictest sense of the term but, as a matter of fact, aired continously until their respective endings came up. Code Geass followed a different schedule and its two seasons, given the long break between them, practically count as two series as opposed to just one. Adding "R2" to the title and the time slot change made this even more blatant.

26 episodes has been the anime "standard" for a series season since the 1970s.
I was using that as the baseline scale from which to judge.

In addition, let's look at what happened to the most important Gundam characters...Therefore, we cannot simply add up the total number of episodes without giving any other thought to the issue.

I understand you point, and it is a good one.
However, I was referring to the lifespan of Char and Amuro.
Lelouch is dead in episode 25 of R2, thus no sequel can be made unless he's alive.
Sunrise can make all the side stories they want with Lelouch before S1, during S1 and R2, but not after, unless they retcon him.
That's my point, they killed him too quickly and may have to retcon him because of that.
I mean, Sunrise could really stick it to Okouchi and just say he was "kidding" or "joking" or something like that when he said Lelouch was dead.
It would be lame yes, but they could still do it, and I think that would not go over very well either.

Not necessarily. Amuro was the focus of the original MSG even if he didn't become the most representative part of the property in the long run...

Every Zeon pilot and his brother's uncle was yelling "THAT'S THE WHITE MOBILE SUIT!" through the whole friggin series.

Amuro was certainly important, but only because he was the pilot of Gundam.
Gundam was the focus.

Whereas in Code Geass every Britannian soldier and one Voluptuous Viceroy were yelling "IT'S ZERO!!" for the whole flippin show.
Who is of course Lelouch and thus the focus of the show.
And there in lies the problem that Sunrise must overcome.
They can do it, no doubt, but how they go about it will determine whether a new series will sink or swim.

What's more, there is no doubt Lelouch is the focus of Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion and Code Geass R2: Lelouch of the Rebellion...but does that mean we can't have Code Geass: Someone of the Something? That is the true question. I don't think so.

Of course they can make side stories, AUs, prequels, or the like.
They just won't be able to pull off a successful direct sequel IMHO because most of the fans are going to expect Lelouch to be in it, and that's a dilemma for Sunrise.

Lelouch's story is, as it stands, the central focus of Code Geass but this doesn't mean he will remain the signature element for another story, even if an immortal Lelouch were to magically show up as a supporting character in a sequel set in the far future. Which, for that matter, isn't necessarily going to be the case.

See above.
I hope Sunrise does find a way to knock Lelouch off the high horse Okouchi and Taniguichi put him on.
The basic idea/premise of the franchise could easily make it the next Gundam, but Sunrise has got to be careful.
Perhaps they' won't even bother with a direct sequel at all.
That is a possibility, though I can't see how the cash-carrot of Lelouch dangling in front of them will not tempt them to make a direct sequel.
A far future sequel without any of the old characters could do well IMO, but not a direct sequel.

That may be what Taniguchi is doing with Renya, but I would assume he'd be more successful if he was better at storytelling and developing a new setting instead of leaving the audience in absolute suspense about too many things.

Yeah, I've noticed that also.
I hope the manga picks up soon.
Aren't there only supposed to be 11 volumes to this one?

Actually, in one of the interviews for Renya that was translated here, Taniguchi mentioned that Nightmare of Nunnally had been successful. I don't know how that compares to the official manga adaptation itself but NoN did run a lot longer than Suzaku of the Counterattack's two volumes, which is saying something

Once again though, I have to say that expecting an anime original property to be equally successful as a manga is rather counterintuitive and relatively rare. With exceptions, usually the original work remains the most popular...and naturally, this also applies in the opposite direction.

NoN did not rank very well from what I've read on ANN.
Manga sales of an anime are a indication of which trends lend themselves best to the storyline itself.
They are a good way to experiment and thus judge what will sell and what won't.
The manga adaptation of the anime was the best performing manga of all those produced thus far AFAIK.
What that says to me at least is that at the time the mangas were coming out (with the exception of Renya) interest in AUs was not there (probably too soon for that kind of thing??).
Peronally I like NoN a great deal, but I enjoy AUs.

I can actually agree with this, at least in principle...I'm thinking we will see more of Zero than Lelouch in Akito.

And to the vast majority of the fanbase, Zero is Lelouch.
Thus, if we see Zero in Akito, we are seeing Sunrise use Lelouch to bring in the fans.

Perhaps we'll actually see more of C.C. too, since we don't really know anything about what she did between the end of R1 and the beginning of R2. You could have her talking about Lelouch and Zero as a way of introducing the subject into the narrative.

That's actually got me very interested.
I wonder if we will see any of the other characters (besides the KoTR).
We may, then again we may not.
Either way I'm anxious for this new series/OAV (or it is OVA?) to come out.