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Old 2012-09-27, 00:41   Link #10656
Sol Falling
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Trust me, brah. I already know the reason!


I mean, why do you think Medaka Box's percentage of male readers far outweighs that of the female's. Haha!

I think the fap-stain speaks for it'self, really. Japan isn't know for it's acquired taste, which is part of the reason One-Piece is the highest selling manga there.
More wilful, judgemental ignorance. The "well-liked" chapter in question was the one corresponding with the latest decent ranking, namely the climax of the previous arc. Medaka Box's rankings historically have shown no particular correspondence with the level of fanservice.

But being more serious now:

Medaka Box went from being a developed, charming narrative with dynamic, evolving conflicts and one with little-to-no coherence, extreme convolutedness, shallow character development, extremely boring conflicts and absolutely no satisfying closure.

I thought this manga was awesome, until the quickly bogging down of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. Totally not what Nishio promised us after chapter 140.

Trying to pass off the current manga as something "so deep that you just can't get It", to me, is just ridiculous. I don't feel that way at all. The charming character development and interesting plots/conflicts this manga had has seemingly evaporated, unfortunately.

Maybe you're just reading too much into the manga, and substituting your own interpretation of the story instead of what's actually there, which is actually vapid and shallow? I've done it with several fiction, really. It's just a desire to see said work acheive it's full potential in our view.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this manga's current state of affairs.
See, no, not really. I can see where that kind of issue influenced your point of view, because you obviously did really like where (you thought) the manga was going at one point in the past and then ended up disappointed (and also started jumping to crazy conclusions, imo, like the idea that Devil Style doesn't exist anymore). In that case you would probably be accurate to say that you read to much into it and had too high expectations, which weren't in line with the actual goal or intent of the manga. As a result of that burn, you're still sitting around complaining lately about how bad the manga is, when in reality it's just your emotional reaction to a severe and unfortunate misread of the direction the manga was going. I think if you had a clearer, more direct picture of what the manga was actually aiming for, like perhaps if you were a Japanese reader with their language and cultural background, you wouldn't be having these issues.

I'm not calling the current storyline "deep", either. My primary concern is if its entertaining. On some level that's because I know the exact nuances/workings of the explanations and the implications of Nishio's language can't be understood unless you have a naturalized Japanese fluency, some way to directly appreciate the source material. I prefer to trust that the explanation is there, and care most about whether the story is entertaining me in the present moment or not. On the occasions that I can afford to, I attempt to take a closer look at the text and draw out some of the more subtler nuances/meanings. These efforts are frequently fruitful.

(For example, when I casually went over the climax to the Black Wedding arc again earlier today, I noticed three things:
1. Momo's "trick the other two suitors into dropping their turns by speaking slowly" strategy meant that she had to distract people from the time for ~3 hours. However, although the dialogue shown in the chapter was nowhere near that much, that period actually included Momo's explanation of Medaka and Dr. Tsurubami's relationship/backstory. Thus making it somewhat more plausible that she filled up that time.
2. When Momo revealed that Medaka's strategy had involved controlling everybody so that nobody ever said the last three syllables, "u", "sa", and "n", she actually meant those three syllables in specific sequence. Not only is this actually verifiable from the (Japanese) text, but it was also that specific sequence which was required for Momo's last word ("kousan", surrender). Additionally, Medaka actually used that sequence in the very first Shiritori word which she used in setting up the strategy, "Ryuusanmu", after which point nobody else used it.
3. Torai mentioned that Medaka asking a bunch of detailed questions about the Shiritori game rules was to "induce the later plot". This was preceded by an earlier discussion from Wanizuka, etc. about whether or not ending a word with "n" on the last turn would make you disqualified. The revelation is, Medaka actually baited Momo to try to end her last word with "n" by purposely not clarifying that detail when she asked for rule explanations, which was part of how Medaka controlled/manipulated Momo into never using the syllables "u", "sa", or "n" until her last turn came up.)

The point is, yes, Nishio is very good at making entertaining twists that people can just enjoy brainlessly. That is one level to how Medaka Box has survived at all as a competitive manga, because you can't expect the Jump audience to generally read on the same level of Nishio's usual audience. However, another thing that Nishio is very good at is minute details. Attention to those details is what he is actually famous in his other writings for--particularly, it's specifically because of those details that it is common for him to be legitimately respected as an "epic troll". The way that Nishio's stories succeed is that, yes, on one level they manage to be entertaining even if you just forget and don't pay attention to the details. However, on the other level, when on occasion you actually do look for the details, it turns out they're actually there. In fact, Nishio often forces people to look at the details because that's precisely the sort of double punch which makes his works actually worth reading.

What really concerns me is that you're clearly flustered and perturbed that two people are agreeing on said opinion. Even more so is that you accuse us of thinking our opinion is objective, when that clearly is ridiculous when dealing with fiction and I never said it was, yet you assumed I felt that way.

I don't know about you, but in the forums I visited, most agreed that the Jet-Black Bride Arc was utter shit. Well, true that there were no japanese readers there, but this isn't some obscure opinion that is completely unjustified simply because japanese readers continued to buy the manga. Or are you saying Japanese readers have reached some state of intellectual enlightenment or something? That seems far-fetched when they might or might not be reading the manga for the same reason you are.

Calm down. That rant was unescessary - I just don't view this manga like you do, that's no reason to insult someone's intelligence and call them "ignorant". Have some decorum, please. I don't see anyone insulting your intelligence due to your opinion.
If you don't think parts of my post applied to you, just ignore them. I grouped you and Kaisos Erainon together because it was expedient. If you want personalized counterarguments for your specific issues, I addressed them above. You also missed that I wasn't calling the Jet Black Wedding arc "objectively good" or anything myself either. The scope of discussion was specifically the chapter which got a good ranking. I myself was unimpressed by large chunks of that arc because I felt they focused too much on pointless conflicts with unimportant characters (for example, Naze's fight with Kanaino in particular lacked tension), and I was also pretty unimpressed with Medaka's characterization. It makes perfect sense to me that many people could find many parts of the Jet Black Wedding Arc unappealing. It's precisely because of the subjective nature of these kinds of judgements, and the incomplete nature of our understanding of Medaka Box natively, that it's better to pay legitimate attention to the particular chapters which did get a good ranking.

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
I can understand why you're frustrated Sol, but I think you're jumping into the other end of fallacious thinking. So just because you're not the intended audience means you're not allowed to judge its quality? Yes, I don't think insulting the Japanese for their tastes is very constructive in this instance, but it's not as if understanding the intentions of this manga will make people like it. Medaka Box is a manga worth analyzing and discussing, but that may not necessarily impact people liking it. Execution also plays a part. Sure, opinions of people on an anime forum aren't always the most well constructed, but it's still plays a part in viewing the series.

Geh, I must grudgingly admit you do stimulate discussion though.
lol. I don't have a problem with people disliking Medaka Box. I have a problem with people throwing ignorant opinions around of it. If people have the capacity to discuss Medaka Box's demerits in a genuine manner, in the context of (i.e. with respect for) its function, aims, and target audience, then I am perfectly happy to do so. Westlo's occasional commentary on Medaka Box's stagnating sales, for example, are a genuine source of concern for me, although overall I am quite a bit more optimistic about Medaka Box's ultimate ability to improve or sustain itself. This recent fair performance in the TOC rankings is something to be glad about in that context, not negative.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-27 at 00:54.
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